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How cool is VL2



 
 
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  #171  
Old April 16th 07, 01:08 AM posted to sci.space.history,sci.physics,sci.astro,alt.fan.art-bell,alt.usenet.kooks
The Ghost In The Machine
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Posts: 546
Default How cool is VL2

In sci.physics, Art Deco

wrote
on Sun, 15 Apr 2007 17:15:47 -0600
:
The Ghost In The Machine wrote:

In sci.physics, Art Deco

wrote
on Sun, 15 Apr 2007 15:12:26 -0600
:
Brad Guth wrote:

plus that other one of their not
having to deal with that pesky gamma and Xray dosage of a moon

How does the Moon generate these high-energy photons, Brad?


EGRET in fact shows that gamma ray radiation on the Moon is higher than
the Sun's.

http://www.aas.org/publications/baas...s/S025002.html

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap970210.html

Granted, this doesn't answer how, but it might answer what.

It's not clear to me how many sieverts or grays this would be.


That's pretty interesting. Still it doesn't support Guth's assertion
that humans would be DOA as soon as they got anywhere near the Moon.
Also, the return of 36 humans from lunar orbit in good health seals the
issue.


Hmm...was it that many? I count 21 but don't know how many missions
played "sling around the moon" before Apollo 11.

But you're right; this doesn't come close to supporting BG's
assertion.

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  #172  
Old April 16th 07, 01:33 AM posted to sci.space.history,sci.physics,sci.astro,alt.fan.art-bell,alt.usenet.kooks
Phineas T Puddleduck[_2_]
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Posts: 1,121
Default How cool is VL2

In article ,
The Ghost In The Machine wrote:

Or perhaps it's something else. I'd have to look. It's
interesting either way, but apparently not lethal; Buzz
Aldrin after all survived long enough to punch someone
in the nose after said someone asked a stupid question,
many years later. ;-)



My hero!

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  #173  
Old April 16th 07, 01:41 AM posted to sci.space.history,sci.physics,sci.astro,alt.fan.art-bell,alt.usenet.kooks
Art Deco[_6_]
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Default How cool is VL2

The Ghost In The Machine wrote:

In sci.physics, Art Deco

wrote
on Sun, 15 Apr 2007 17:15:47 -0600
:
The Ghost In The Machine wrote:

In sci.physics, Art Deco

wrote
on Sun, 15 Apr 2007 15:12:26 -0600
:
Brad Guth wrote:

plus that other one of their not
having to deal with that pesky gamma and Xray dosage of a moon

How does the Moon generate these high-energy photons, Brad?


EGRET in fact shows that gamma ray radiation on the Moon is higher than
the Sun's.

http://www.aas.org/publications/baas...s/S025002.html

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap970210.html

Granted, this doesn't answer how, but it might answer what.

It's not clear to me how many sieverts or grays this would be.


That's pretty interesting. Still it doesn't support Guth's assertion
that humans would be DOA as soon as they got anywhere near the Moon.
Also, the return of 36 humans from lunar orbit in good health seals the
issue.


Hmm...was it that many? I count 21 but don't know how many missions
played "sling around the moon" before Apollo 11.


There were nine total Apollo missions that encountered the Moon:

8, 10-17

13 only did a sling-around, of course, but it was still within a few
miles of the surface.

But you're right; this doesn't come close to supporting BG's
assertion.


Yup.

--
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The section is clearly attributed to Art Deco, not to you, Deco."
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  #174  
Old April 16th 07, 02:22 AM posted to sci.space.history,sci.physics,uk.sci.astronomy,sci.astro
[email protected]
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Posts: 1,139
Default How cool is VL2

On Apr 15, 3:11 pm, The Ghost In The Machine
wrote:
In sci.physics,

wrote
on 15 Apr 2007 14:49:14 -0700
om:

On Apr 15, 1:47 pm, The Ghost In The Machine
wrote:


I for one see little point in putting anything in
VL2 except for the "Wow, we could go there" factor
(touristing). Admittedly, one might be able to
gather additional Venusian climatologic data. I'm
not sure how that would help Earth avoid global warming.


Your all-knowing naysayism is well noted, and fully expected.


Of course. But you're going to have to write a coherent proposal to the
venture capitalists at some point. What's the return on investment
here?


Interplanetary commerce is worth how much these days?

Are we talking mere billions per year, per month, or its potential
somewhere within the trillions upon trillions. It's actually a little
hard to tell where the payback could ever stop going up and up.

A focus upon Venus would certaily cut our ongoing and continually
outgoing losses by a good hundred billion per year as is. Doesn't
that account for anything?
-
Brad Guth

  #175  
Old April 16th 07, 02:36 AM posted to sci.space.history,sci.physics,uk.sci.astronomy,sci.astro
[email protected]
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Posts: 1,139
Default How cool is VL2

On Apr 15, 3:11 pm, The Ghost In The Machine
wrote:

Ah, I see. So you're going to compensate for the up to 1 megaPascal
precisely how? I'm not sure that composites are *that* strong.


As long as you stayed within the massive submarine like composite
rigid airship, mostly stuck with eating pizza and drinking ice cold
beer, as such you would not need those cranial pressure equalisation
passages created, otherwise a few holes drilled here and there,
possibly having some of those borg like tubes going from one body
place to another, and of course a very gradual build up from our wussy
one bar environment to that of the nearly 100 bar worth of the Venus
nighttime might take a month or so. Since most of us can't hold our
breath that long, so we'd need to breath mostly the artificial likes
of h2 plus just a wee bit of o2, and I'm not exactly sure how bringing
along all of that pizza and ice cold beer thing is going work out.
-
Brad Guth

  #176  
Old April 16th 07, 03:24 AM posted to sci.space.history,sci.physics,sci.astro,alt.fan.art-bell,alt.usenet.kooks
TheBookman
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Posts: 16
Default How cool is VL2

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 18:41:12 -0600, Art Deco wrote:

The Ghost In The Machine wrote:

In sci.physics, Art Deco

wrote
on Sun, 15 Apr 2007 17:15:47 -0600
:
The Ghost In The Machine wrote:

In sci.physics, Art Deco

wrote
on Sun, 15 Apr 2007 15:12:26 -0600
:
Brad Guth wrote:

plus that other one of their not
having to deal with that pesky gamma and Xray dosage of a moon

How does the Moon generate these high-energy photons, Brad?


EGRET in fact shows that gamma ray radiation on the Moon is higher than
the Sun's.

http://www.aas.org/publications/baas...s/S025002.html

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap970210.html

Granted, this doesn't answer how, but it might answer what.

It's not clear to me how many sieverts or grays this would be.

That's pretty interesting. Still it doesn't support Guth's assertion
that humans would be DOA as soon as they got anywhere near the Moon.
Also, the return of 36 humans from lunar orbit in good health seals the
issue.


Hmm...was it that many? I count 21 but don't know how many missions
played "sling around the moon" before Apollo 11.


There were nine total Apollo missions that encountered the Moon:

8, 10-17

13 only did a sling-around, of course, but it was still within a few
miles of the surface.


Did al your contact with teh Guthball affect your math skillz?
IIRC, Apollo missions had a crew of three.


But you're right; this doesn't come close to supporting BG's
assertion.


Yup.


Yup.

ESL!


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WWFSMD?

  #177  
Old April 16th 07, 03:34 AM posted to sci.space.history,sci.physics,uk.sci.astronomy,sci.astro
The Ghost In The Machine
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Posts: 546
Default How cool is VL2

In sci.physics,

wrote
on 15 Apr 2007 18:22:30 -0700
.com:
On Apr 15, 3:11 pm, The Ghost In The Machine
wrote:
In sci.physics,

wrote
on 15 Apr 2007 14:49:14 -0700
om:

On Apr 15, 1:47 pm, The Ghost In The Machine
wrote:


I for one see little point in putting anything in
VL2 except for the "Wow, we could go there" factor
(touristing). Admittedly, one might be able to
gather additional Venusian climatologic data. I'm
not sure how that would help Earth avoid global warming.


Your all-knowing naysayism is well noted, and fully expected.


Of course. But you're going to have to write a coherent proposal to the
venture capitalists at some point. What's the return on investment
here?


Interplanetary commerce is worth how much these days?


You tell us. A space flight to LEO is priced $20M on the open market,
judging from the press releases I've seen thus far. $100M wouldn't be
too out of line.


Are we talking mere billions per year, per month, or its potential
somewhere within the trillions upon trillions. It's actually a little
hard to tell where the payback could ever stop going up and up.


Businesses will readily tell you that income is gross revenue minus
costs of revenue minus overhead. I know that much MBA. :-)


A focus upon Venus would certaily cut our ongoing and continually
outgoing losses by a good hundred billion per year as is. Doesn't
that account for anything?


Losses? What losses? What are you talking about?

Are you suggesting that the Chinese will readily go onto Guthian
Spacelines to travel to VL2? If so, I'd like to see a smattering
of evidence -- if nothing else, a statement from a prominent Chinese
industrialist that expresses an interest to traveling to Venus.

-
Brad Guth



--
#191,

Useless C++ Programming Idea #889123:
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  #178  
Old April 16th 07, 03:34 AM posted to sci.space.history,sci.physics,sci.astro,alt.fan.art-bell,alt.usenet.kooks
Odysseus
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Posts: 154
Default How cool is VL2

In article ,
The Ghost In The Machine wrote:

snip

If S8 is a compound, not an element, what is its chemical composition?


S_8 is the most usual allotrope of elemental sulphur (No. 16 -- the
official IUPAC spelling is the American "sulfur"), yellow in colour, as
in the common household/garden product "flowers of sulphur". The
molecule is a coronate (zig-zaggy) ring of eight sulphur atoms, and
typically makes orthorhombic crystals.

Conditions on Venus seem rather unsuitable for S_8 to persist. It melts
at only 115°C (boiling at 445°C) under terrestrial conditions, and in
the molten state the rings tend to open, forming polymeric S_n chains. I
don't know exactly what effects the great atmospheric pressures would
have on its behaviour, though. The melting point would be somewhat
higher, because the liquid is 5-10% less dense than the solid, but I
doubt it would become high enough for the substance to remain solid.
FWIW sulphur's triple point is at over twice the pressure, and nearly
twice the temperature, of Venus's surface.

--
Odysseus
  #179  
Old April 16th 07, 03:57 AM posted to sci.space.history,sci.physics,uk.sci.astronomy,sci.astro
The Ghost In The Machine
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Posts: 546
Default How cool is VL2

In sci.physics,

wrote
on 15 Apr 2007 18:36:35 -0700
. com:
On Apr 15, 3:11 pm, The Ghost In The Machine
wrote:

Ah, I see. So you're going to compensate for the up to 1 megaPascal
precisely how? I'm not sure that composites are *that* strong.


As long as you stayed within the massive submarine like composite
rigid airship, mostly stuck with eating pizza and drinking ice cold
beer, as such you would not need those cranial pressure equalisation
passages created, otherwise a few holes drilled here and there,
possibly having some of those borg like tubes going from one body
place to another, and of course a very gradual build up from our wussy
one bar environment to that of the nearly 100 bar worth of the Venus
nighttime might take a month or so. Since most of us can't hold our
breath that long, so we'd need to breath mostly the artificial likes
of h2 plus just a wee bit of o2, and I'm not exactly sure how bringing
along all of that pizza and ice cold beer thing is going work out.


I was referring to the dirigible envelope, not my head.
In any event, a human under 9.3 MPa of pressure would be
in no danger AFAICT as long as there's sufficient oxygen
and no deleterious chemicals in the atmosphere.

Unfortunately, neither is the case, judging from the data
I've seen thus far -- though admittedly, I'm not sure how
accurate the data is. Presumably the Venerian probes did
some basic work regarding the atmospheric content for the
short amount of time they were on the ground, and that
data is now part of the Wikipedia entry for Venus.

Magellan didn't quite make it that far.

I don't know maximum dive depth for human divers --
9.3 MPa corresponds to almost 1 km. Fortunately, SCUBA
tanks can handle 22 MPa. Unfortunately, thescubaguide.com
suggests that the maximum depth for standard equipment is
only about 200 feet -- about 66 m or 660 kPa. (And that's
for professional divers. The primary issue apparently is
nitrogen narcosis.) One can go deeper, presumably, if one
doesn't use nitrogen -- the "free diving record" is 450 feet,
or a bit shy of 150m.

http://www.thescubaguide.com/mailbag/qa012.aspx

I have seen a show where they used high-pressure helium, mixed
with oxygen. The voices sound extremely odd -- but presumably
nitrogen narcosis is no longer an issue.

As for breathing H2, unknown as to how that would react
with our lungs. Under ideal circumstances it would be a
bit like N2 -- generally inert. (However, N2 is soluble in
blood; look up "the bends", a painful malady that strikes
divers on occasion.)

Under less favorable circumstances it may make one drunk.
There are suggestions that ethyl alcohol's metabolism
in the liver includes H2 as a byproduct. This H2 is
metabolized as well, of course, or perhaps just passes
into solution.

And of course an H2/O2 mixture would be rather dangerous.
Fortunately, it is also generally nonexistent, at least
on Venus' surface; the biggest component thereon is
carbon dioxide, the next is nitrogen, according to
the standard measurements. Where you get your idea
that there's hydrogen on Venus, I for one don't know.
Presumably anyone stupid enough to stand on the Venusian
surface, assuming the heat and the oxygen problem were
solved, would succumb from the aforementioned nitrogen
narcosis and some bad effects from CO2 acidic poisoning --
an issue that almost doomed the Apollo 13 mission, but was
worked around by some clever engineering using duct tape,
the flight manual, and a spare filtration unit.

If one were to hang a chilled (say 5C) beercan from a
slender thread in a 735K 9.3 MPa atmosphere, I do not know
how long it would be before it explodes from boiling.
(The good news: water won't boil until it's over 300
degrees C in 9.3 MPa of atmosphere, and beer is mostly
water. The bad news: I'm not sure I'd want to drink beer
or even handle a beer can at 300 degrees C.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...ic/watvap.html )

-
Brad Guth


--
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  #180  
Old April 16th 07, 03:59 AM posted to sci.space.history,sci.physics,sci.astro,alt.fan.art-bell,alt.usenet.kooks
The Ghost In The Machine
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Posts: 546
Default How cool is VL2

In sci.physics, Phineas T Puddleduck

wrote
on Mon, 16 Apr 2007 01:33:44 +0100
:
In article ,
The Ghost In The Machine wrote:

Or perhaps it's something else. I'd have to look. It's
interesting either way, but apparently not lethal; Buzz
Aldrin after all survived long enough to punch someone
in the nose after said someone asked a stupid question,
many years later. ;-)



My hero!


And here's your hero in action, apparently. ;-)

http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=3844

Can't say I blame him.

--
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(1) if one defines "multi" as "exactly one".

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