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#31
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NASA criticism from departing employee
Ian Parker wrote:
: :Gives ESA spacecraft. However it is manned spacecraft which cost the :big money. You are right in saying that NASA has sent far more people :into orbit. However there is the Shuttle - Orion gap. Nothing like :that in ESA. : Certainly nothing like that in ESA, since you first have to HAVE manned flight on your own vehicles in order to have a GAP in manned flight capability. So far, ESA is all gap... -- "Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn |
#32
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NASA criticism from departing employee
On Aug 26, 3:58 pm, eyeball wrote:
On Aug 26, 10:03 am, BradGuth wrote: On Aug 26, 5:50 am, Ian Parker wrote: On 25 Aug, 16:18, Pat Flannery wrote:http://www..nasawatch.com/archives/2...well_mess.html Are things really that screwed up down there? Is it just a disgruntled employee or is it a symtom of a wide malaise.. If you are in NASA you have to watch your step. Outside NASA you have to judge by results. There is a gap in manned launcher capability between the Shuttle and Orion. This is an OBJECTIVE fact not based on disgruntled employees. Is the NASA malaise due to lack of funding? In no way. The NASA budget for 2008 was $17 billion. That of ESA €3 billion. Yet with a far lower budget ESA seems to be managing to achieve as much is not more. Ariane 5 BTW is now man rated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europea...//en.wikipedia.... Why does Ares oscillate? How come Armstrong and Aldrin went to the Moon in 1969 yet Ares can't fly? A lack of CAD expertise would fit. Is money the object. In the year before the Moon landing expenditure (inflation adjusted) was 26 billion, and the year before almost $30 billion. Absolute expenditure was just over 5 billion. Look at the table in the reference. 1975 was the year of lowest expenditure. NASA STILL has an extremely large budget when compared both with other space agencies and with other big science projects. The LHC is costing something around $7 billion if the infrastructure costs are taken into account. This is a TOTAL budget. No it is not total money it is focus and competance. Herbert Spencer has spoken of engineers making decisions in the Apollo days whereas today everything is referred up to an administrator. Does the fact tat GWB understands nothing of science and is a self confessed creationalist anything to do with it?Possibly. One cannot help comparing NASA with the CPA in Iraq. What links Arabic and stability theory? A - If you know either you will not get a job with the US Govt. I talked about using Saturn instead of Ares. Perhaps people are right one should not look back. It does however seem strange that what was accumplished in 1969 cannot be replicated today.. - Ian Parker http://www.lhc.ac.uk/about-the-lhc/who-is-involved.html There is the strong faith-based considerations and subsequent policy or mandate that wants all of DARPA/NASA to respect their Earth only policy, of everything off-world being of inert eye-candy according to their one and only published interpretation. Perhaps their employee Finckenor had inadvertently let it slip that he believes otherwise. On Aug 25, 8:18 am, Pat Flannery wrote: http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/20...well_mess.html Are things really that screwed up down there? Pat Yes lord all-knowing Pat, and it's not that such public funded agencies as NASA and their vendors are not capable of making honest mistakes, but it's their seemingly endless capability to accommodate special interest groups and to otherwise cover their butts whenever things turn out poorly, spendy or lethal. Seems impossible to learn from mistakes if information is suppressed or getting wrongly published for PR damage-control. Quote: At the highest levels, there seems to be a belief that you can mandate reality, followed by a refusal to accept any information that runs counter to that mandate. I'm sure you can all think of multiple examples (having nothing to do with CAD) without trying very hard. This reminds me of Clark's law: "Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark %27s_Law). I've heard others use terms like "arrogance combined with ignorance". end quote: Clearly insider/incest formulated job and retirement benefit security is their priority No.1 Their need-to-know and otherwise taboo/nondisclosure policy on just about everything that truly matters is what goes hand and hand, along with their impressive truth-lag. It's folks like yourself that are acting as their public brown-nosed clown in charge of mainstream damage-control, and apparently they have a nearly unlimited army of such civil service and x-civil service subcontracted clowns as their loyal minions that'll willingly follow your lead. Our DARPA/NASA is much like a collective swarm of Borg killer bees, as individually unthinking and otherwise unwilling to ever change their collective mindset, regardless of the consequences or impending doom of whomever gets in their way, or dares to so much as question their authority. Good folks like Jeffrey L Finckenor are seemingly too few and far between. It’s a shame they have to exit stage left, in order to survive without losing whatever is left of their mind. Quote: Then between us workers and the highest levels of management another problem exists. As one person put it: "Where does the bad news stop going up?" Again, I'm sure you all know of situations where people are trying to raise red flags, but somehow they never get addressed. It reminds me of the old joke about promoting growth with powerful effects. http://www.thejokejukebox.com/jokes/...S-wordwarning). One group I know of is considered a success at the highest levels, not because they've achieved anything, but only because they've voiced problems. Program level management is so amazed at getting actual input from workers that it doesn't matter that the news itself is bad. And I regret that, despite mandatory "No Fear" training, retaliation is real even if kept strictly legal. I've been here awhile, and am not naive enough to expect much thanks for helping maintain the critical path for the last 3 years. However I didn't expect a threat of personnel actions that typically lead to firing. I didn't expect to be personally badmouthed by an ED manager in public (when I was not there) on more then one occasion. However I'm not surprised that the fact that I talked to the IG was relevant in determining if I would get the one job that might have kept me at NASA. When I first started arguing that MSFC had made a bad decision it was with the sure knowledge that it might cost me my job. For the past 3 years I've wondered if I'd still be here 6 months later, and now that time has come - despite the fact that things are arguably worse then we predicted 3 years ago. end quote: Sadly, without investing trillions of our hard earned loot to fix most everything, it’s only going to get worse, and the next presidential administration that’s starting off in the hole by some $54 trillion isn’t likely to fork over that kind of public loot, much less take advisements from outsiders as to what could resolve many issues. ~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth Incredible! That makes so much sense why can't any of our fellow posters get it. You should offer your services as a consultant to NASA or even the POTUS! Ian Parker and even the likes of William Mook would be far superior to what I alone would do with our DARPA / NASA. However, as a contributing team effort I do believe that much of our NASA can be salvaged, even if becomes another part of our USAF. It's not that future mistakes and mishaps will not happen. It's about not allowing cover-ups or special interest groups (aka cabals) to run the show. ~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth |
#33
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NASA criticism from departing employee
"Derek Lyons" wrote in message ... Pat Flannery wrote: http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/20...well_mess.html Are things really that screwed up down there? Kieth never met an anti-NASA rant he didn't like. Make that an anti-NASA management rant. In my opinion, Ares I is the biggest NASA cluster to date, shoved down everyone's throat by top level NASA management. Jeff -- A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein |
#34
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NASA criticism from departing employee
"Derek Lyons" wrote in message ... "jonathan" wrote: It wasn't all the long ago when the general public cared quite a bit about what NASA was doing. Spot on - except for the bit about the general public caring about NASA. The American public (i.e. the media) doesn't care what their astronauts do, as long as they don't die doing it. But if it's another NASA employee who dies on the job, you hardly hear anything about it in the media. Jeff -- A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein |
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NASA criticism from departing employee
On Aug 27, 5:05 am, "Jeff Findley"
wrote: "Derek Lyons" wrote in message ... Pat Flannery wrote: http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/20...well_mess.html Are things really that screwed up down there? Kieth never met an anti-NASA rant he didn't like. Make that an anti-NASA management rant. In my opinion, Ares I is the biggest NASA cluster to date, shoved down everyone's throat by top level NASA management. It's just the tip of a very dirty iceberg that's AGW melting before our snookered and dumbfounded eyes. Perhaps if our DARPA/NASA could use even bigger and spendier cluster bombs like the last one, at least it'll put on a really nifty blooper show. btw, why hasn't the Ares I and their Orion fiasco showed up on prime time media televised news? (in HDTV none the less, along with command center audio) ~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth |
#36
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NASA criticism from departing employee
On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 02:46:29 -0700 (PDT), Ian Parker
wrote: However it is manned spacecraft which cost the big money. You are right in saying that NASA has sent far more people into orbit. However there is the Shuttle - Orion gap. Nothing like that in ESA. NASA will be in the exact same boat as ESA during the gap. Both dependent on rides to ISS by the Russians. Brian |
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NASA criticism from departing employee
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#38
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NASA criticism from departing employee
On Aug 27, 9:59*am, Brian Thorn wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 02:46:29 -0700 (PDT), Ian Parker wrote: However it is manned spacecraft which cost the big money. You are right in saying that NASA has sent far more people into orbit. However there is the Shuttle - Orion gap. Nothing like that in ESA. NASA will be in the exact same boat as ESA during the gap. Both dependent on rides to ISS by the Russians. Brian That's assuming the next administration doesn't decide to extend the use of the shuttles. All this talk won't amount to anything after the election. Who knows what current projects will be funded and what will be discarded. Maybe Cold War II will cause another space race. |
#39
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NASA criticism from departing employee
That's assuming the next administration doesn't decide to extend the
use of the shuttles. My impression from Jorge was that, with the termination of several supply contracts, the die have already been cast - there is no way back, at least not for more than a very few missions. Jan |
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NASA criticism from departing employee
On 27 Aug, 18:11, eyeball wrote:
That's assuming the next administration doesn't decide to extend the use of the shuttles. All this talk won't amount to anything after the election. Who knows what current projects will be funded and what will be discarded. Maybe Cold War II will cause another space race. CW 2 means that it might be unwise to rely on the Russians for transport to LEO. - Ian Parker |
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