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Is Elon Musk ready for the straitjacket ?



 
 
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  #41  
Old October 5th 17, 10:26 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
StarDust
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Default Is Elon Musk ready for the straitjacket ?

On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 10:36:31 AM UTC-7, Mike Collins wrote:


With electric cars, if it breaks down, I don't think there's a
mechanic at every corner, who can fix it.

Electric cars are mechanically simpler and therefore easier to
repair
(although like all electronics, these days that essentially means
board swaps). When there are enough electric cars, there will be
more
mechanics who can deal with them than mechanics who know what to do
with a gasoline vehicle. In 20 years most of the cars on the road
will
be electric.

Wouldn't that require electricians rather than mechanics? You don't
call a plumber to fix a problem with the electricity in your house,
do you? The same ought to apply to electric cars, just as it already
applies to electric trains and trams.

In conventional usage, "electrician" typically refers to a person who
installs or maintains wiring. There's not much in the way of
electronics involved.

The complex electronics found in electric cars will either be thrown
away and swapped out when it fails, or will be repaired by specialists
and resold. It won't be repaired by your mechanic.

Electric car repairs will mostly involve the same systems found in
other types of cars- bearings and brakes and shock absorbers and door
locks. Things that don't look much different, and can be fixed with
the same mechanical skills.


Certified "electricians" in Denmark offer a wide range of services.
Including IT and solar panel installations and the repair of white goods.
As well as "common" wiring of homes and businesses, of course.
No doubt the daily work of a small company of electricians is split
between those with specialist disciplines, training or preferences.

Vehicle mechanics are also required to be fully trained and certified.
They will, no doubt, attend to electric cars when a dealer's guarantee runs out.
Though that time may we far off in Denmark.
Because electric car sales are on a level with luxury "supersportscars."
All thanks to crippling vehicle import duties.

There are now more public charging points, in Denmark, than annual,
private, electric vehicle sales.
Remember that when the Danish Prime Minister talks about Green Issues at the UN.
He demands change from other nations.
While allowing electric car sales only to wealthy Danes. [Tesla 'S']
Denmark has its own corridors of exhaust filth along major roadways and
motorways in its cities.
This is a whole new level of international, clima-diplomatic hypocrisy!

My own Japanese car is so old it can't remember its own birthday!
It also enjoys a low mileage discount from insurance but not from paying full road taxes.
I want an electric car before I die and I want it now!


Why not a used Nissan Leaf from the UK.


Better deal? Why?
  #42  
Old October 5th 17, 10:45 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Mike Collins[_4_]
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Posts: 2,824
Default Is Elon Musk ready for the straitjacket ?

StarDust wrote:
On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 10:36:31 AM UTC-7, Mike Collins wrote:


With electric cars, if it breaks down, I don't think there's a
mechanic at every corner, who can fix it.

Electric cars are mechanically simpler and therefore easier to
repair
(although like all electronics, these days that essentially means
board swaps). When there are enough electric cars, there will be
more
mechanics who can deal with them than mechanics who know what to do
with a gasoline vehicle. In 20 years most of the cars on the road
will
be electric.

Wouldn't that require electricians rather than mechanics? You don't
call a plumber to fix a problem with the electricity in your house,
do you? The same ought to apply to electric cars, just as it already
applies to electric trains and trams.

In conventional usage, "electrician" typically refers to a person who
installs or maintains wiring. There's not much in the way of
electronics involved.

The complex electronics found in electric cars will either be thrown
away and swapped out when it fails, or will be repaired by specialists
and resold. It won't be repaired by your mechanic.

Electric car repairs will mostly involve the same systems found in
other types of cars- bearings and brakes and shock absorbers and door
locks. Things that don't look much different, and can be fixed with
the same mechanical skills.

Certified "electricians" in Denmark offer a wide range of services.
Including IT and solar panel installations and the repair of white goods.
As well as "common" wiring of homes and businesses, of course.
No doubt the daily work of a small company of electricians is split
between those with specialist disciplines, training or preferences.

Vehicle mechanics are also required to be fully trained and certified.
They will, no doubt, attend to electric cars when a dealer's guarantee runs out.
Though that time may we far off in Denmark.
Because electric car sales are on a level with luxury "supersportscars."
All thanks to crippling vehicle import duties.

There are now more public charging points, in Denmark, than annual,
private, electric vehicle sales.
Remember that when the Danish Prime Minister talks about Green Issues at the UN.
He demands change from other nations.
While allowing electric car sales only to wealthy Danes. [Tesla 'S']
Denmark has its own corridors of exhaust filth along major roadways and
motorways in its cities.
This is a whole new level of international, clima-diplomatic hypocrisy!

My own Japanese car is so old it can't remember its own birthday!
It also enjoys a low mileage discount from insurance but not from paying full road taxes.
I want an electric car before I die and I want it now!


Why not a used Nissan Leaf from the UK.


Better deal? Why?


I'm not sure if it applies in Denmark but when I was in Norway the
ridiculously high taxes were for new cars only and the Norwegians I was
working with said they used to get their cars serviced in Denmark for some
strange tax reason.


  #43  
Old October 6th 17, 06:51 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris.B[_3_]
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Posts: 1,001
Default Is Elon Musk ready for the straitjacket ?

On Thursday, 5 October 2017 23:45:21 UTC+2, Mike Collins wrote:

I'm not sure if it applies in Denmark but when I was in Norway the
ridiculously high taxes were for new cars only and the Norwegians I was
working with said they used to get their cars serviced in Denmark for some
strange tax reason.


The Danes get their teeth fixed in Sweden. Fixed price monopoly in Denmark.
20 years ago I paid a fortune to import my old [and nearly worthless in the UK] Volvo 360.
It cost another fortune to put it through a Danish MOT when it already had a new British MOT.
Danish car repairs are fixed price regardless of effort required or time.
I watched from across the road as my "3 hour" windscreen replacement took under ten minutes.
The Danes say; "Own one car. Pay for three."
They probably say the same for their teeth.
Spectacles are also ridiculously priced in comparison with the UK.
I was recently quoted £600+ for a pair of single strength, non-allergenic reading glasses.
The supermarkets sell single strength reading glasses for between £5-10 equiv.
It's pot luck whether I am allergic to the plastic frames.
  #44  
Old October 7th 17, 04:37 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
RichA[_1_]
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Posts: 553
Default Is Elon Musk ready for the straitjacket ?

Divide 150,000km into your driving. Now factor in the $14,000 the battery of a Volt or Leaf costs. Still cheaper than a gasoline car, which can easily hit 250,000km before needing a $3500 engine rebuild.
  #45  
Old October 7th 17, 09:28 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris.B[_3_]
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Posts: 1,001
Default Is Elon Musk ready for the straitjacket ?

On Saturday, 7 October 2017 05:37:29 UTC+2, RichA wrote:
Divide 150,000km into your driving. Now factor in the $14,000 the battery of a Volt or Leaf costs. Still cheaper than a gasoline car, which can easily hit 250,000km before needing a $3500 engine rebuild.


A new battery chemistry is in the offing.
With very rapid recharging but still limited lifespan.
But doubling in range at frequent intervals.
The holy grail and Achilles heel for electric vehicles is STILL the battery.

The rest is just familiar engineering.
With an overt emphasis on styling at the expense of efficiency and safety.
And, with enough built in obsolescence to maintain a hungry annual market.
They already know how to build cars badly.
Because they've been doing it perfectly for the last century.
  #46  
Old October 7th 17, 10:02 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Mike Collins[_4_]
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Posts: 2,824
Default Is Elon Musk ready for the straitjacket ?

RichA wrote:
Divide 150,000km into your driving. Now factor in the $14,000 the
battery of a Volt or Leaf costs. Still cheaper than a gasoline car,
which can easily hit 250,000km before needing a $3500 engine rebuild.


Your estimated cost is miles off. I wouldn’t buy a Leaf because of the
limited range but the costs re much less than you suggest.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...d-what-it-took.

However you were wildly optimistic on the battery life.

  #47  
Old October 7th 17, 10:27 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Mike Collins[_4_]
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Posts: 2,824
Default Is Elon Musk ready for the straitjacket ?

Mike Collins wrote:
RichA wrote:
Divide 150,000km into your driving. Now factor in the $14,000 the
battery of a Volt or Leaf costs. Still cheaper than a gasoline car,
which can easily hit 250,000km before needing a $3500 engine rebuild.


Your estimated cost is miles off. I wouldn’t buy a Leaf because of the
limited range but the costs re much less than you suggest.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...d-what-it-took.

However you were wildly optimistic on the battery life.



The link above doesn’t work for me. But it was basically a Leaf owner in
California whose battery failed at 65,000 miles. He got a replacement which
cost a standard price of 6500 dollars. They estimated cost of battery
replacement just over 13 cents per mile.
That drive their cat to 90,000 miles before changing the battery by which
time the range had halved. But they could have changed it at 65,000 miles.

  #48  
Old October 7th 17, 02:40 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
StarDust
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Posts: 732
Default Is Elon Musk ready for the straitjacket ?

On Saturday, October 7, 2017 at 2:27:24 AM UTC-7, Mike Collins wrote:

Divide 150,000km into your driving. Now factor in the $14,000 the
battery of a Volt or Leaf costs. Still cheaper than a gasoline car,
which can easily hit 250,000km before needing a $3500 engine rebuild.


Your estimated cost is miles off. I wouldn’t buy a Leaf because of the
limited range but the costs re much less than you suggest.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...d-what-it-took.

However you were wildly optimistic on the battery life.



The link above doesn’t work for me. But it was basically a Leaf owner in
California whose battery failed at 65,000 miles. He got a replacement which
cost a standard price of 6500 dollars. They estimated cost of battery
replacement just over 13 cents per mile.
That drive their cat to 90,000 miles before changing the battery by which
time the range had halved. But they could have changed it at 65,000 miles..


Most people lease EV cars, not own it. This tech is moving so fast, not worth to keep for long time.
Also, I wouldn't buy an EV car , unless I drive a lot or only use it to commute to work.
On EV cars , same with solar, the initial cost is too high, I think!
Takes 4-5 years when an EV car start to pay back.
  #49  
Old October 7th 17, 03:23 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris L Peterson
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Posts: 10,007
Default Is Elon Musk ready for the straitjacket ?

On Sat, 7 Oct 2017 06:40:17 -0700 (PDT), StarDust
wrote:

Most people lease EV cars, not own it. This tech is moving so fast, not worth to keep for long time.
Also, I wouldn't buy an EV car , unless I drive a lot or only use it to commute to work.
On EV cars , same with solar, the initial cost is too high, I think!
Takes 4-5 years when an EV car start to pay back.


This assumes, of course, that a simple economic payback is at the core
of your decision making process. A person can have other rational
considerations, as well.

It also depends on circumstance. Where I live it is often cheaper when
building a new house to install solar than to connect to the grid. It
pays for itself on the first day, and the subsequent cost per WH is
much less. So it's economically sound, even aside from the pleasure of
not being tied to a utility, and having a more robust power solution.

Where I live, it consumes a few liters of gasoline just getting to a
gas station. I could keep an electric car charged from a couple
hundred dollars worth of PV panels and that would cover almost all my
usage. I'd buy an electric car in an instant, except they haven't yet
produced one that meets my requirements- 4WD SUV format, not a hybrid.
I don't think it will be much longer, though.
  #50  
Old October 7th 17, 05:19 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
StarDust
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Posts: 732
Default Is Elon Musk ready for the straitjacket ?

On Saturday, October 7, 2017 at 7:23:46 AM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Sat, 7 Oct 2017 06:40:17 -0700 (PDT),

Most people lease EV cars, not own it. This tech is moving so fast, not worth to keep for long time.
Also, I wouldn't buy an EV car , unless I drive a lot or only use it to commute to work.
On EV cars , same with solar, the initial cost is too high, I think!
Takes 4-5 years when an EV car start to pay back.


This assumes, of course, that a simple economic payback is at the core
of your decision making process. A person can have other rational
considerations, as well.

It also depends on circumstance. Where I live it is often cheaper when
building a new house to install solar than to connect to the grid. It
pays for itself on the first day, and the subsequent cost per WH is
much less. So it's economically sound, even aside from the pleasure of
not being tied to a utility, and having a more robust power solution.

Where I live, it consumes a few liters of gasoline just getting to a
gas station. I could keep an electric car charged from a couple
hundred dollars worth of PV panels and that would cover almost all my
usage. I'd buy an electric car in an instant, except they haven't yet
produced one that meets my requirements- 4WD SUV format, not a hybrid.
I don't think it will be much longer, though.


yes, well, not every one has solar on roof, not even a house, they rent, but they would like to commute to work , cheap as possible.
Last few years, we're blessed with lower oil prices, but I don't think it will last.
Soon as this EV or hybrid technology is ready for the masses, oil prices will go up substantially and people will buy EV's like candy!


 




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