A Space & astronomy forum. SpaceBanter.com

Go Back   Home » SpaceBanter.com forum » Space Science » Policy
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Ion drive for aircraft imminent.



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old November 3rd 16, 12:41 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.space.policy,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 127
Default Ion drive for aircraft imminent.

On 11/2/16 8:20 PM, krw wrote:
On Wed, 2 Nov 2016 02:54:54 -0000, wrote:

In sci.physics krw wrote:
On Wed, 2 Nov 2016 00:00:54 -0000,
wrote:

In sci.physics John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 1 Nov 2016 18:19:02 -0000,
wrote:

snip

BTW, the lack of commercial success for flying cars has nothing to do
with propulsion methods.


But propulsion does matter, in the sense that there is no affordable
way to make a flying car. Helicopters get terrible gas mileage.

You do know helicopters spend a fair amount of time not traveling, don't
you, but that has nothing to do with flying cars.

Cars spend a fair amount of time not driving, too. So?


Not at close to full output power.


Helicopters don't have a throttle or an "off" button?



I think he refers to the fact that a rotorcraft uses ~70% of its
available power just to hover -- i.e., before it's even moving forward,
or carrying any cargo beyond its own weight, it's starting to approach
max output. In addition, current torque monitoring systems for
rotorcraft are only accurate to about +/- 5%, which means that in
practice the pilot is going to have to be real cautious about exceeding
95% output. A heavily loaded rotorcraft will be limited to a VERY small
percentage of its power output for actually moving anywhere.



--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website:
http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

  #22  
Old November 3rd 16, 02:16 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.space.policy,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
Robert Clark[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 245
Default Ion drive for aircraft imminent.

The nanotubes may become longer lasting by using bundles of nanotubes:

Arrays of Bundles of Carbon Nanotubes as Field Emitters.
NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California
Thursday, 01 February 2007
Area-averaged current densities exceed those of arrays of single nanotubes.
"Experiments have shown that with suitable choices of critical dimensions,
planar arrays of bundles of carbon nanotubes (see figure) can serve as
high-current-density field emitter (cold-cathode) electron sources. Whereas
some hot-cathode electron sources must be operated at supply potentials of
thousands of volts, these cold-cathode sources generate comparable current
densities when operated at tens of volts. Consequently, arrays of bundles of
carbon nanotubes might prove useful as cold-cathode sources in miniature,
lightweight electron-beam devices (e.g., nanoklystrons) soon to be
developed."
http://www.techbriefs.com/component/...-sciences/1206

And in any case you don't need to use the nanowires as electron emitters to
get the ionization effect. You get it as well from the intense electric
fields generated by wires at the nanoscale in accordance with Peek's Law:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peek%27s_law

Note it may be the nanoscale wires might not even need to be carbon
nanotubes. According to Peek's Law simply being at nanoscale diameters is
sufficient to generate the intense fields. Since there is much research
ongoing with metallic nanowires they as well could be used to confirm the
better efficiency of ionic propulsion with wires at the nanoscale.

In regards to getting longer nanotubes by tying them together, that has
already been confirmed experimentally by a team at Rice University, the
leading center for nanotechnology in the U.S. That research was published in
Nature Materials, the associated journal in materials science to Nature, the
leading science journal in the world. The Rice team was able to show simply
tying nanotubes together produced longer nanotubes of greater current
capacity than the copper or aluminum wires now in use and at lighter weight.

About the power requirements, the ionic propulsion with ionizing wires,
called corona wires, at the nanoscale has improved power-to-thrust ratio.
Then the needed power can be supplied by onboard batteries.

Bob Clark

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"John Larkin" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 1 Nov 2016 11:09:13 -0400, "Robert Clark"
wrote:

Nanotechnology makes possible an "ion drive" for air vehicles analogous to
the famous ion drive of NASA's deep space probes:

Carbon nanotubes for "Ionic Wind" Craft or "Ionocraft".
Clark R*
Department of Mathematics, Widener University, USA
Review Article
Volume 1 Issue 2 / Received Date: September 26, 2016 / Published Date:
October 20, 2016
Abstract
Peter Thiel of the Founders Fund once famously said, "We wanted flying
cars,
and we got 140 characters."But nanotechnology now does make possible the
long desired flying cars. It's a different propulsion method though than
propellers or jets however. It's propulsion by electric fields known as
electrohydrodynamic propulsion (EHD). It works by ionizing air then using
electric fields to propel the charged air molecules rearward, thus
producing
thrust. It's quite analogous to the famous space ion drive of NASA. EHD has
been known at least since the sixties. Its problem is, as with ion drive,
the thrust is so low. So far the EHD craft have not been able to lift both
themselves and their power supplies. The ones made so far leave the power
supply on the ground and connect to the craft through power cables. But the
equations of EHD suggest the thrust for the power required gets larger for
thinner ionizing wires. In fact if the wires are at the nanoscale then this
important thrust-to-power ratio can be a hundred times higher than for the
craft constructed so far. This would be enough to lift the craft and the
power supply. This research is to prove what the mathematics suggests. Note
that if it works then all propeller and rotor driven craft become obsolete.
Also, intermediate range automobile travel would be taken over by the EHD
craft, so a large proportion of carbon-emissions would be eliminated,
replaced by this zero-emission travel method. In regards to space
propulsion, since EHD is so similar to ion drive, using components at the
nanoscale may also work to improve the thrust of ion drive. This would be
important to shortening the flight times of spacecraft using such drives.
This is important not just for robotic spacecraft but also satellites that
use such ion drives to reach their final GEO destinations. As it is now,
the
ion drives used have such low thrust it takes months for such satellites to
reach GEO, resulting in millions of dollars of lost revenue to the
satellite
companies. Being able to increase the thrust of these drives would reduce
the flight time, and therefore reduce this lost revenue.
Keywords: Electrohydrodynamic propulsion; Carbon nanotubes; Nanowires;
Ionic
wind; Ionocraft; Plasma drive
https://medwinpublishers.com/NNOA/vo...=23&issueId=63

Bob Clark


Post again when Chevy dealerships are selling flying cars.

Carbon nanotubes are the idiotic craze of the day, and are pretty much
useless so far. As electron or ion emitters, they quickly destroy
themselves.

And they still don't violate conservation of energy. Where is all the
zero-pollution power going to come from?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That's hilarious, tying tiny nanotubes together with fancy knots.

The nanotech bubble popped roughly 10 years ago. I was involved with
academics and inventors and slimy VCs all hoping to cash in on the
upside of the Next Big Thing.

--
John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

---

  #23  
Old November 3rd 16, 02:28 PM posted to sci.electronics.design,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.space.policy
Robert Clark[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 245
Default Ion drive for aircraft imminent.

Good question. You can make one of these EHD devices yourself, commonly
called "lifters", to test this. Do a web search on: "lifters" and "power
supply" for the many explanations online for how to make them. My guess is
since it's the intense electric fields that is creating the ionization they
will still work in high humidity or rain. Note also the EHD effect also
works with liquids.

Bob Clark

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wrote in message
...

On Tuesday, November 1, 2016 at 8:09:00 AM UTC-7, Robert Clark wrote:
Nanotechnology makes possible an "ion drive" for air vehicles analogous to
the famous ion drive of NASA's deep space probes:

Carbon nanotubes for "Ionic Wind" Craft or "Ionocraft".
Clark R*
Department of Mathematics, Widener University, USA
Review Article
Volume 1 Issue 2 / Received Date: September 26, 2016 / Published Date:
October 20, 2016
Abstract
Peter Thiel of the Founders Fund once famously said, "We wanted flying
cars,
and we got 140 characters."But nanotechnology now does make possible the
long desired flying cars. It's a different propulsion method though than
propellers or jets however. It's propulsion by electric fields known as
electrohydrodynamic propulsion (EHD). It works by ionizing air then using
electric fields to propel the charged air molecules rearward, thus
producing
thrust. It's quite analogous to the famous space ion drive of NASA. EHD
has
been known at least since the sixties. Its problem is, as with ion drive,
the thrust is so low. So far the EHD craft have not been able to lift both
themselves and their power supplies. The ones made so far leave the power
supply on the ground and connect to the craft through power cables. But
the
equations of EHD suggest the thrust for the power required gets larger for
thinner ionizing wires. In fact if the wires are at the nanoscale then
this
important thrust-to-power ratio can be a hundred times higher than for the
craft constructed so far. This would be enough to lift the craft and the
power supply. This research is to prove what the mathematics suggests.
Note
that if it works then all propeller and rotor driven craft become
obsolete.
Also, intermediate range automobile travel would be taken over by the EHD
craft, so a large proportion of carbon-emissions would be eliminated,
replaced by this zero-emission travel method. In regards to space
propulsion, since EHD is so similar to ion drive, using components at the
nanoscale may also work to improve the thrust of ion drive. This would be
important to shortening the flight times of spacecraft using such drives.
This is important not just for robotic spacecraft but also satellites that
use such ion drives to reach their final GEO destinations. As it is now,
the
ion drives used have such low thrust it takes months for such satellites
to
reach GEO, resulting in millions of dollars of lost revenue to the
satellite
companies. Being able to increase the thrust of these drives would reduce
the flight time, and therefore reduce this lost revenue.
Keywords: Electrohydrodynamic propulsion; Carbon nanotubes; Nanowires;
Ionic
wind; Ionocraft; Plasma drive
https://medwinpublishers.com/NNOA/vo...=23&issueId=63

Bob Clark




Do they work when it's raining / in humid environments?

Michael

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

  #24  
Old November 3rd 16, 02:48 PM posted to sci.electronics.design,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.space.policy
Robert Clark[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 245
Default Ion drive for aircraft imminent.

The commonly used name for these EHD devices made by amateurs is "lifters".
The problem with their not being able to fly independently is the power
supplies are so heavy. Look for example at the lifter he

How to: "Lifter" Power Supply.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfdsEVjBpBU

Quite commonly the lifters weigh, and the thrust they can produce, is in the
range of grams but the power supplies weigh in the range of kilograms. So
how do you solve that problem?

Let me give an analogy. Many people are aware of the technical innovations
the Wright brothers made to be able to develop a successful flying machine.
They made their own wind tunnel. They tested various air foils to find
efficient ones of high lift. They developed a warping wing technique for
steering.

However, not as well known is the one key innovation they made for which all
those other innovations would have been worthless. When many scientists of
the time after doing a mathematical analysis asserted that no heavier-than
air flying machine could work, oddly enough they were *right*. But the
problem was, they were basing this on the power sources widely known at the
time, steam engines. But the steam engines were so inefficient they could
not supply sufficient power for their weight. They were too heavy.

Around the time of the Wright brothers though the internal combustion
gasoline engine was coming into use for automobiles, but they were still too
heavy for the Wright brothers use. So the one *key* innovation the Wright
brothers made was that they designed and built their OWN lightweight
internal combustion engine.

Now, back to the EHD propulsion method. The power supplies are too heavy, so
what can we do about that? Well, you can make them out of lightweight
materials. That's a possible route to follow, but most amateur and even
professional experimenters have used ready made power supplies or used ready
made parts to build them. The result is they are all pretty standard weight
for the power they put out.

But let's analyze this further, *why* are the power supplies so heavy? It
turns out the reason they are so heavy is the voltage needed for the ion
propulsion method is in the range of tens of thousands of volts, frequently
as high as 50,000 volts. This then requires heavy transformers to produce
voltage this high. Alright then, can we find a way to reduce the required
voltage?

Yes! It turns out if you reduce the diameter of the wires doing the
ionization of the air then the required voltage is reduced. In fact,
according to the math if the wires are at the nanoscale then the required
voltage might be reduced to only tens of volts instead of tens of thousands
of volts. For the small-scale lifters, if you used now wires at the
nanoscale, it may be they could be powered by a couple of 9-volt batteries
connected in series.

So that's the key point, for nanowires the voltage required for ionization
is severely reduced. This is the content of Peek's Law:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peek%27s_law


Bob Clark

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"John Larkin" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 1 Nov 2016 10:06:41 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Tuesday, November 1, 2016 at 8:09:00 AM UTC-7, Robert Clark wrote:
Nanotechnology makes possible an "ion drive" for air vehicles analogous
to
the famous ion drive of NASA's deep space probes:

Carbon nanotubes for "Ionic Wind" Craft or "Ionocraft".
Clark R*
Department of Mathematics, Widener University, USA
Review Article
Volume 1 Issue 2 / Received Date: September 26, 2016 / Published Date:
October 20, 2016
Abstract
Peter Thiel of the Founders Fund once famously said, "We wanted flying
cars,
and we got 140 characters."But nanotechnology now does make possible the
long desired flying cars. It's a different propulsion method though than
propellers or jets however. It's propulsion by electric fields known as
electrohydrodynamic propulsion (EHD). It works by ionizing air then using
electric fields to propel the charged air molecules rearward, thus
producing
thrust. It's quite analogous to the famous space ion drive of NASA. EHD
has
been known at least since the sixties. Its problem is, as with ion drive,
the thrust is so low. So far the EHD craft have not been able to lift
both
themselves and their power supplies. The ones made so far leave the power
supply on the ground and connect to the craft through power cables. But
the
equations of EHD suggest the thrust for the power required gets larger
for
thinner ionizing wires. In fact if the wires are at the nanoscale then
this
important thrust-to-power ratio can be a hundred times higher than for
the
craft constructed so far. This would be enough to lift the craft and the
power supply. This research is to prove what the mathematics suggests.
Note
that if it works then all propeller and rotor driven craft become
obsolete.
Also, intermediate range automobile travel would be taken over by the EHD
craft, so a large proportion of carbon-emissions would be eliminated,
replaced by this zero-emission travel method. In regards to space
propulsion, since EHD is so similar to ion drive, using components at the
nanoscale may also work to improve the thrust of ion drive. This would be
important to shortening the flight times of spacecraft using such drives.
This is important not just for robotic spacecraft but also satellites
that
use such ion drives to reach their final GEO destinations. As it is now,
the
ion drives used have such low thrust it takes months for such satellites
to
reach GEO, resulting in millions of dollars of lost revenue to the
satellite
companies. Being able to increase the thrust of these drives would reduce
the flight time, and therefore reduce this lost revenue.
Keywords: Electrohydrodynamic propulsion; Carbon nanotubes; Nanowires;
Ionic
wind; Ionocraft; Plasma drive
https://medwinpublishers.com/NNOA/vo...=23&issueId=63

Bob Clark




Do they work when it's raining / in humid environments?

Michael


No. And under even ideal conditions, they don't work for long.

Why do people invent (and press release) crazy sci-fi dreams that
ignore basic physics? There is a reason why helicopters have gas
turbine engines and giant fan blades... and horrendous fuel
consumption rates. Why don't they just use their jet engines to lift
the vehicle?


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

  #25  
Old November 3rd 16, 03:00 PM posted to sci.electronics.design,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.space.policy
Robert Clark[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 245
Default Ion drive for aircraft imminent.

Yes, that's a good example. Electric, battery-powered airplanes and
helicopters already exist. However, the key point is according to the
mathematics you can get even better power-to-thrust ratio with ionic
propulsion using ionizing wires at the nanoscale than helicopters achieve.

Bob Clark


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wrote in message
...

On Tuesday, November 1, 2016 at 10:20:43 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
...
Why do people invent (and press release) crazy sci-fi dreams that
ignore basic physics? There is a reason why helicopters have gas
turbine engines and giant fan blades... and horrendous fuel
consumption rates. Why don't they just use their jet engines to lift
the vehicle?
--
John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement


Oh I dunno, I thought this 18-rotor electric copter-thingie was kind of
cute.

http://newatlas.com/volocopter-manned-flight/42704/

Michael
---

  #26  
Old November 3rd 16, 03:35 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.space.policy,sci.electronics.design,rec.arts.sf.science
Robert Clark[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 245
Default Ion drive for aircraft imminent.

As mentioned previously, battery-powered airplanes and helicopters do exist.
The ionic propulsion will likewise be battery-powered but at a more
efficient power usage, if the ionizing wires are at the nanoscale.

The greater efficiency for ionic propulsion with nanoscale wires can be
confirmed with any wires at the nanoscale, not just carbon nanotubes. For
example, the intense fields created by nanoscale wires in microcircuitry
boards is well-known to those in the field. So anyone who has familiarity
working with microcircuitry boards with nanoscale wiring could confirm this.

And that's all that's required. That in itself would be the game changer.
Even if it's only done on a model the size of a model airplane, once it's
shown that nanoscale wiring for ionic propulsion produced better
power-to-thrust ratio than helicopters, that would be sufficient for this to
supplant helicopters as a hovering transport method.

Bob Clark


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy" wrote in message
...

"Robert Clark" wrote in
:

Nanotechnology makes possible an "ion drive" for air vehicles
analogous to the famous ion drive of NASA's deep space probes:

Carbon nanotubes for "Ionic Wind" Craft or "Ionocraft".
Clark R*
Department of Mathematics, Widener University, USA
Review Article
Volume 1 Issue 2 / Received Date: September 26, 2016 / Published
Date: October 20, 2016
Abstract
Peter Thiel of the Founders Fund once famously said, "We wanted
flying cars, and we got 140 characters."But nanotechnology now
does make possible the long desired flying cars.


The reason we don't have flying cars has nothing to do with the
method of propulsion. We've *had* flying cars for decades. And this
will do nothing to make them a) cheaper, b) easier to fly, or c)
safer when there are tens of millions of them in the air at once.

Note that if it works then all propeller
and rotor driven craft become obsolete.


Just like all propeller and rotor drive craft became obsolete when
jet engeins were invented. Sure.

Also, intermediate range
automobile travel would be taken over by the EHD craft,


Effectively, jet powered cars? Because it sounds like there will be
a high speed exhaust of _some_ kind behind the vehicle. Which makes
it . . . unlikely.

Plus, two orders of magnitude increase in thrust to weight from
current ion engines isn't even close to what a car needs.

so a
large proportion of carbon-emissions would be eliminated,
replaced by this zero-emission travel method.


The electricity has to come from _somewhere_.

As is usual, nearly universal, with all announcement of
revolutionary new technologies, this reads more like a prospectus
for investors than anything else. Which is to say, he wants to
invest a whole lof of other people's money into finding out if it
works.

If he really believed it would work, he'd invest his own money, and
keep _all_ the profits himself.
--
Terry Austin

  #27  
Old November 3rd 16, 04:33 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.space.policy,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
John Larkin[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default Ion drive for aircraft imminent.

On Thu, 3 Nov 2016 09:16:52 -0400, "Robert Clark"
wrote:

The nanotubes may become longer lasting by using bundles of nanotubes:

Arrays of Bundles of Carbon Nanotubes as Field Emitters.
NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California
Thursday, 01 February 2007
Area-averaged current densities exceed those of arrays of single nanotubes.
"Experiments have shown that with suitable choices of critical dimensions,
planar arrays of bundles of carbon nanotubes (see figure) can serve as
high-current-density field emitter (cold-cathode) electron sources. Whereas
some hot-cathode electron sources must be operated at supply potentials of
thousands of volts, these cold-cathode sources generate comparable current
densities when operated at tens of volts. Consequently, arrays of bundles of
carbon nanotubes might prove useful as cold-cathode sources in miniature,
lightweight electron-beam devices (e.g., nanoklystrons) soon to be
developed."
http://www.techbriefs.com/component/...-sciences/1206

And in any case you don't need to use the nanowires as electron emitters to
get the ionization effect. You get it as well from the intense electric
fields generated by wires at the nanoscale in accordance with Peek's Law:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peek%27s_law

Note it may be the nanoscale wires might not even need to be carbon
nanotubes. According to Peek's Law simply being at nanoscale diameters is
sufficient to generate the intense fields. Since there is much research
ongoing with metallic nanowires they as well could be used to confirm the
better efficiency of ionic propulsion with wires at the nanoscale.

In regards to getting longer nanotubes by tying them together, that has
already been confirmed experimentally by a team at Rice University, the
leading center for nanotechnology in the U.S. That research was published in
Nature Materials, the associated journal in materials science to Nature, the
leading science journal in the world. The Rice team was able to show simply
tying nanotubes together produced longer nanotubes of greater current
capacity than the copper or aluminum wires now in use and at lighter weight.

About the power requirements, the ionic propulsion with ionizing wires,
called corona wires, at the nanoscale has improved power-to-thrust ratio.
Then the needed power can be supplied by onboard batteries.

Bob Clark


Get back to us when Honda is selling flying cars.

And note that top-posting is an email thing, discouraged on usenet.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

  #28  
Old November 3rd 16, 04:41 PM posted to sci.electronics.design,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.space.policy
John Larkin[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default Ion drive for aircraft imminent.

On Thu, 3 Nov 2016 09:48:31 -0400, "Robert Clark"
wrote:

The commonly used name for these EHD devices made by amateurs is "lifters".
The problem with their not being able to fly independently is the power
supplies are so heavy. Look for example at the lifter he

How to: "Lifter" Power Supply.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfdsEVjBpBU

Quite commonly the lifters weigh, and the thrust they can produce, is in the
range of grams but the power supplies weigh in the range of kilograms. So
how do you solve that problem?

Let me give an analogy. Many people are aware of the technical innovations
the Wright brothers made to be able to develop a successful flying machine.
They made their own wind tunnel. They tested various air foils to find
efficient ones of high lift. They developed a warping wing technique for
steering.

However, not as well known is the one key innovation they made for which all
those other innovations would have been worthless. When many scientists of
the time after doing a mathematical analysis asserted that no heavier-than
air flying machine could work, oddly enough they were *right*. But the
problem was, they were basing this on the power sources widely known at the
time, steam engines. But the steam engines were so inefficient they could
not supply sufficient power for their weight. They were too heavy.

Around the time of the Wright brothers though the internal combustion
gasoline engine was coming into use for automobiles, but they were still too
heavy for the Wright brothers use. So the one *key* innovation the Wright
brothers made was that they designed and built their OWN lightweight
internal combustion engine.

Now, back to the EHD propulsion method. The power supplies are too heavy, so
what can we do about that? Well, you can make them out of lightweight
materials. That's a possible route to follow, but most amateur and even
professional experimenters have used ready made power supplies or used ready
made parts to build them. The result is they are all pretty standard weight
for the power they put out.

But let's analyze this further, *why* are the power supplies so heavy? It
turns out the reason they are so heavy is the voltage needed for the ion
propulsion method is in the range of tens of thousands of volts, frequently
as high as 50,000 volts. This then requires heavy transformers to produce
voltage this high. Alright then, can we find a way to reduce the required
voltage?


High-voltage power supplies don't need heavy transformers. But they do
need a source of power. I doubt that an ion thruster could lift its
own batteries for five minutes even if the power converter weighs
zero.



Yes! It turns out if you reduce the diameter of the wires doing the
ionization of the air then the required voltage is reduced. In fact,
according to the math if the wires are at the nanoscale then the required
voltage might be reduced to only tens of volts instead of tens of thousands
of volts. For the small-scale lifters, if you used now wires at the
nanoscale, it may be they could be powered by a couple of 9-volt batteries
connected in series.


Again, you won't get enough lift to support those two batteries, and
they would be dead in minutes anyhow.

The tiny tips would erode rapidly, too.

Don't top post on usenet.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

  #29  
Old November 3rd 16, 06:22 PM posted to sci.electronics.design,sci.physics,sci.space.policy
Yuri Kreaton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Ion drive for aircraft imminent.

On 11/3/2016 10:41 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 3 Nov 2016 09:48:31 -0400, "Robert Clark"
wrote:

The commonly used name for these EHD devices made by amateurs is
"lifters". The problem with their not being able to fly
independently is the power supplies are so heavy. Look for example
at the lifter he

How to: "Lifter" Power Supply.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfdsEVjBpBU

Quite commonly the lifters weigh, and the thrust they can produce,
is in the range of grams but the power supplies weigh in the range
of kilograms. So how do you solve that problem?





Now, back to the EHD propulsion method. The power supplies are too
heavy, so what can we do about that? Well, you can make them out of
lightweight materials. That's a possible route to follow, but most
amateur and even professional experimenters have used ready made
power supplies or used ready made parts to build them. The result
is they are all pretty standard weight for the power they put out.

But let's analyze this further, *why* are the power supplies so
heavy? It turns out the reason they are so heavy is the voltage
needed for the ion propulsion method is in the range of tens of
thousands of volts, frequently as high as 50,000 volts. This then
requires heavy transformers to produce voltage this high. Alright
then, can we find a way to reduce the required voltage?


High-voltage power supplies don't need heavy transformers. But they
do need a source of power. I doubt that an ion thruster could lift
its own batteries for five minutes even if the power converter
weighs zero.



Yes! It turns out if you reduce the diameter of the wires doing the
ionization of the air then the required voltage is reduced. In
fact, according to the math if the wires are at the nanoscale then
the required voltage might be reduced to only tens of volts instead
of tens of thousands of volts. For the small-scale lifters, if you
used now wires at the nanoscale, it may be they could be powered by
a couple of 9-volt batteries connected in series.


Again, you won't get enough lift to support those two batteries, and
they would be dead in minutes anyhow.

The tiny tips would erode rapidly, too.


Don't top post on usenet.

An ion thruster is a form of electric propulsion used for spacecraft
propulsion. It creates thrust by accelerating ions with electricity.
The term refers strictly to gridded electrostatic ion thrusters, but
may more loosely be applied to all electric propulsion systems that
accelerate plasma, since plasma consists of ions.



wiki (note the last line)
Ion thrusters are categorized by how they accelerate the ions, using
either electrostatic or electromagnetic force. Electrostatic thrusters
use the Coulomb force and accelerate the ions in the direction of the
electric field. Electromagnetic thrusters use the Lorentz force. In
either case, when an ion passes through an electrostatic grid engine,
the potential difference of the electric field converts to the ion's
kinetic energy.

Ion thrusters have an input power spanning 1–7 kW, exhaust velocity
20–50 km/s, thrust 25–250 millinewtons and efficiency 65–80%.[1][2]

The Deep Space 1 spacecraft, powered by an ion thruster, changed
velocity by 4300 m/s while consuming less than 74 kilograms of xenon.
The Dawn spacecraft broke the record, reaching 10,000 m/s.[1][2]

Applications include control of the orientation and position of orbiting
satellites (some satellites have dozens of low-power ion thrusters) and
use as a main propulsion engine for low-mass robotic space vehicles (for
example Deep Space 1 and Dawn).[1][2]

The ion thruster is not the most promising type of electrically powered
spacecraft propulsion (although the most successful in practice).[2] An
ion drive would require two days to accelerate a car to highway speed.
The technical characteristics, especially thrust, are considerably
inferior to the prototypes described in literature,[1][2] technical
capabilities are limited by the space charge created by ions. This
limits the thrust density (force per cross-sectional area of the
engine).[2] Ion thrusters create small thrust levels (the thrust of Deep
Space 1 is approximately equal to the weight of one sheet of paper[2])
compared to conventional chemical rockets, but achieve high specific
impulse, or propellant mass efficiency, by accelerating the exhaust to
high speed. The power imparted to the exhaust increases with the square
of exhaust velocity while thrust increase is linear. Conversely,
chemical rockets provide high thrust, but are limited in total impulse
by the small amount of energy that can be stored chemically in the
propellants.[3] Given the practical weight of suitable power sources,
the acceleration from an ion thruster is frequently less than one
thousandth of standard gravity. However, since they operate as electric
(or electrostatic) motors, they convert a greater fraction of input
power into kinetic exhaust power. Chemical rockets operate as heat
engines, and Carnot's theorem limits the exhaust velocity.

Ion thrust engines are practical only in the vacuum of space and cannot
take vehicles through the atmosphere because ion engines do not work in
the presence of ions outside the engine. Spacecraft rely on conventional
chemical rockets to initially reach orbit.

  #30  
Old November 3rd 16, 06:39 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.space.policy,sci.electronics.design,rec.arts.sf.science
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,346
Default Ion drive for aircraft imminent.

In sci.physics Robert Clark wrote:
As mentioned previously, battery-powered airplanes and helicopters do exist.


As research toys; there are not as yet any electric airplanes or helicopters
that could be called practical in any sense of the word.

The ionic propulsion will likewise be battery-powered but at a more
efficient power usage, if the ionizing wires are at the nanoscale.

The greater efficiency for ionic propulsion with nanoscale wires can be
confirmed with any wires at the nanoscale, not just carbon nanotubes. For
example, the intense fields created by nanoscale wires in microcircuitry
boards is well-known to those in the field. So anyone who has familiarity
working with microcircuitry boards with nanoscale wiring could confirm this.


An intense field does not automatically means motive power.

Are you saying microcircuitry boards have to be lashed down to keep
them from flying away?

And that's all that's required. That in itself would be the game changer.
Even if it's only done on a model the size of a model airplane, once it's
shown that nanoscale wiring for ionic propulsion produced better
power-to-thrust ratio than helicopters, that would be sufficient for this to
supplant helicopters as a hovering transport method.


Yeah, sure.

You do know the tips of such ion generators burn away and the smaller the
tip the faster they burn?

Bob Clark


snip

--
Jim Pennino
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New computer technology imminent. Jeff Findley[_6_] Astronomy Misc 2 April 24th 15 03:33 PM
Armageddon Imminent: Fundies Don't Get It (but they will) Anonymous Remailer Astronomy Misc 8 April 10th 08 07:14 PM
Armageddon Imminent: Fundies Don't Get It (but they will) Anonymous Remailer Amateur Astronomy 7 April 10th 08 07:14 PM
Lunar Eclipse Imminent! Double-A[_1_] Misc 8 September 12th 07 10:04 AM
Is a local supernova imminent? Imperishable Stars Misc 7 October 6th 04 12:40 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 SpaceBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.