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Emdrive might change the law of inertia (for the Earth too!)



 
 
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  #32  
Old November 24th 16, 06:43 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Rob[_8_]
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Posts: 57
Default Emdrive might change the law of inertia (for the Earth too!)

Non Newtonian Propulsion wrote:
Do you know if it exist the project to test emdrive in freespace near the earth?


http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...-reactionless/

Of course such a test is completely meaningless, but still...
  #34  
Old November 24th 16, 10:44 PM posted to sci.space.policy
William Mook[_2_]
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Posts: 3,840
Default Emdrive might change the law of inertia (for the Earth too!)

Discussion of the science of rocketry in a thread discussing a possible science fiction notion of non Newtonian propulsion technology is entirely relevant.

The rocket equation for interplanetary use

Vf = Ve * LN( MR )

Or for interstellar use with photonic propulsion

Vf = c * TANH( LN( MR ) )

Depends on well established Newtonian science!

Non Newtonian propulsion is as yet science fiction though as in all studies of the natural world subject to experimental proof.


  #35  
Old November 24th 16, 11:30 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Non Newtonian Propulsion
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Posts: 16
Default Emdrive might change the law of inertia (for the Earth too!)

Il giorno giovedì 24 novembre 2016 22:44:14 UTC+1, William Mook ha scritto:
Discussion of the science of rocketry in a thread discussing a possible science fiction notion of non Newtonian propulsion technology is entirely relevant.

The rocket equation for interplanetary use

Vf = Ve * LN( MR )

Or for interstellar use with photonic propulsion

Vf = c * TANH( LN( MR ) )

Depends on well established Newtonian science!

Non Newtonian propulsion is as yet science fiction though as in all studies of the natural world subject to experimental proof.


In reality any scientists said that newtonian action reaction principle can be violated in electrodynamic ... See this from Max Planck about a century ago
(It si in italian)


Planck :“il principio di reazione sar* violato quando si
consideri solo la quantit* di moto meccanica, e sara’ invece soddisfatto non appena si tenga presente anche la quantit* di moto elettromagnetica.”

from:

http://www.cobraf.com/forum/immagini/R_123586262_1.pdf


  #36  
Old November 25th 16, 12:46 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Alain Fournier[_3_]
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Posts: 548
Default Emdrive might change the law of inertia (for the Earth too!)

Il giorno 24 novembre 2016 17:30, Non Newtonian Propulsion ha scritto :
Il giorno giovedì 24 novembre 2016 22:44:14 UTC+1, William Mook ha scritto:
Discussion of the science of rocketry in a thread discussing a possible science fiction notion of non Newtonian propulsion technology is entirely relevant.

The rocket equation for interplanetary use

Vf = Ve * LN( MR )

Or for interstellar use with photonic propulsion

Vf = c * TANH( LN( MR ) )

Depends on well established Newtonian science!

Non Newtonian propulsion is as yet science fiction though as in all studies of the natural world subject to experimental proof.


In reality any scientists said that newtonian action reaction principle can be violated in electrodynamic ... See this from Max Planck about a century ago
(It si in italian)


Planck :“il principio di reazione sar* violato quando si
consideri solo la quantit* di moto meccanica, e sara’ invece soddisfatto non appena si tenga presente anche la quantit* di moto elettromagnetica.”

from:

http://www.cobraf.com/forum/immagini/R_123586262_1.pdf


I get a message saying that the requested server was not found.

Ottengo un messaggio che dice che il sito richiesto non è stato trovato.


Alain Fournier

  #37  
Old November 25th 16, 02:32 AM posted to sci.space.policy
William Mook[_2_]
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Posts: 3,840
Default Emdrive might change the law of inertia (for the Earth too!)

On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 11:30:39 AM UTC+13, Non Newtonian Propulsion wrote:
Il giorno giovedì 24 novembre 2016 22:44:14 UTC+1, William Mook ha scritto:
Discussion of the science of rocketry in a thread discussing a possible science fiction notion of non Newtonian propulsion technology is entirely relevant.

The rocket equation for interplanetary use

Vf = Ve * LN( MR )

Or for interstellar use with photonic propulsion

Vf = c * TANH( LN( MR ) )

Depends on well established Newtonian science!

Non Newtonian propulsion is as yet science fiction though as in all studies of the natural world subject to experimental proof.


In reality any scientists said that newtonian action reaction principle can be violated in electrodynamic ... See this from Max Planck about a century ago
(It si in italian)


Planck :“il principio di reazione sar* violato quando si
consideri solo la quantit* di moto meccanica, e sara’ invece soddisfatto non appena si tenga presente anche la quantit* di moto elettromagnetica.”

from:

http://www.cobraf.com/forum/immagini/R_123586262_1.pdf


"The reaction principle will be violated when we only consider the amount of mechanical motion, and will fulfilled once you also have regard to the amount of electromagnetic momentum"

I don't see this as a violation of Newtonian mechanics, merely its extension to include the momentum transfer due to electromagnetic radiation - the Poynting Vector.

  #38  
Old November 25th 16, 08:20 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Non Newtonian Propulsion
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 16
Default Emdrive might change the law of inertia (for the Earth too!)

Il giorno venerdì 25 novembre 2016 00:46:03 UTC+1, Alain Fournier ha scritto:
Il giorno 24 novembre 2016 17:30, Non Newtonian Propulsion ha scritto :
Il giorno giovedì 24 novembre 2016 22:44:14 UTC+1, William Mook ha scritto:
Discussion of the science of rocketry in a thread discussing a possible science fiction notion of non Newtonian propulsion technology is entirely relevant.

The rocket equation for interplanetary use

Vf = Ve * LN( MR )

Or for interstellar use with photonic propulsion

Vf = c * TANH( LN( MR ) )

Depends on well established Newtonian science!

Non Newtonian propulsion is as yet science fiction though as in all studies of the natural world subject to experimental proof.


In reality any scientists said that newtonian action reaction principle can be violated in electrodynamic ... See this from Max Planck about a century ago
(It si in italian)


Planck :“il principio di reazione sar* violato quando si
consideri solo la quantit* di moto meccanica, e sara’ invece soddisfatto non appena si tenga presente anche la quantit* di moto elettromagnetica.”

from:

http://www.cobraf.com/forum/immagini/R_123586262_1.pdf


I get a message saying that the requested server was not found.

Ottengo un messaggio che dice che il sito richiesto non è stato trovato.


Alain Fournier


Try this

http://fisica.unipv.it/antoci/re/Planck08.pdf

E.Laureti


  #39  
Old November 25th 16, 08:38 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Non Newtonian Propulsion
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 16
Default Emdrive might change the law of inertia (for the Earth too!)

Il giorno venerdì 25 novembre 2016 02:32:31 UTC+1, William Mook ha scritto:
On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 11:30:39 AM UTC+13, Non Newtonian Propulsion wrote:
Il giorno giovedì 24 novembre 2016 22:44:14 UTC+1, William Mook ha scritto:
Discussion of the science of rocketry in a thread discussing a possible science fiction notion of non Newtonian propulsion technology is entirely relevant.

The rocket equation for interplanetary use

Vf = Ve * LN( MR )

Or for interstellar use with photonic propulsion

Vf = c * TANH( LN( MR ) )

Depends on well established Newtonian science!

Non Newtonian propulsion is as yet science fiction though as in all studies of the natural world subject to experimental proof.


In reality any scientists said that newtonian action reaction principle can be violated in electrodynamic ... See this from Max Planck about a century ago
(It si in italian)


Planck :“il principio di reazione sar* violato quando si
consideri solo la quantit* di moto meccanica, e sara’ invece soddisfatto non appena si tenga presente anche la quantit* di moto elettromagnetica.”

from:

http://www.cobraf.com/forum/immagini/R_123586262_1.pdf


"The reaction principle will be violated when we only consider the amount of mechanical motion, and will fulfilled once you also have regard to the amount of electromagnetic momentum"

I don't see this as a violation of Newtonian mechanics, merely its extension to include the momentum transfer due to electromagnetic radiation - the Poynting Vector.


The deep problem is to measure if really


pE/c

p= momentum

E= energy

c= velocity of light

  #40  
Old November 26th 16, 08:14 PM posted to sci.space.policy
David Spain
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Posts: 2,901
Default Emdrive might change the law of inertia (for the Earth too!)

On 11/24/2016 12:43 PM, Rob wrote:
Non Newtonian Propulsion wrote:
Do you know if it exist the project to test emdrive in freespace near the earth?


http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...-reactionless/

Of course such a test is completely meaningless, but still...


I would admit the (small) possibility of using EmDrive for satellite
station keeping in orbits that are within the influence of a planet with
a significant (Geo/Jovi/etc)centric* magnetic field

It would have to be provably better than an ion propulsion system. No
need for propellant is a big plus...

Dave

*Earth/Jupiter/etc.
 




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