Elon Musk discusses making Mars more habitable by nuking thepoles

On 9/21/2015 10:11 AM, Greg (Strider) Moore wrote:
That said, if it's a Musk expedition, I can see a real temptation for
him to use batteries based on his current designs.
If you're going to do that, I'd go with the swappable idea. Have a
standard size that can be swapped out between your rovers, bulldozers,
other items and charge them back at base while not in use. (and use them
for overnight storage instead of worrying about a nuke).

One advantage of using them with a rover is if something happens, you
don't necessarily run out of fuel (like you might with diesel) but you
might be at a greatly reduced capability (i.e. just enough energy to
maintain some life support while you wait for the 2nd rover to arrive.


I swear we have been down this discussion before. Because I am certain
that there was a previous discussion about batteries and how well they
would/would-not stand up to the extreme cold on Mars.

That is a serious consideration. If you have to heat, that's power
removed. I tend to also favor the chemical plant idea, powered off a
nuke. Or electric, maybe, if kept warm using thermal mini-nukes that can
go for long, long stretches of time.

Speaking of Mars habitation...

There is a LOT of groundwork that needs to be done before we mount a
Mars expedition. Like, for instance, just how much gravity does the crew
need to survive a trip there and back, or for that matter to even just
LIVE on Mars? According to a talk I heard recently we don't even know
this basic fact. We have two (count 'em) data points. We know that long
term Zero G is VERY BAD for us physiologically, and that One G is good.
We need to know the data points in between, esp. for the Moon and Mars
and perhaps what the health curves look like. Perhaps there is a 'G'
between 0 and 1 that makes for Superman health? Or maybe its almost a
step function? (Really bad news for human-based space exploration
folks). Because it's mother nature we can almost be assured it's not a
straight line plot. We just don't know this important piece of really
really basic data....

There is A LOT of work to do in LEO still. Electrical & chemical power
is the least of the issues right now IMO.

Perhaps folks are so hell-bent on going to Mars they are willing to
accept an average life-span of 20 additional years or possibly quite
less (for a healthy Earth-bound twenty something) post-departure in
exchange for living on exotic real-estate? I don't know. People have
made those kinds of trade-offs in the past. But I think folks at least
deserve to KNOW when they are making that trade-off.

Dave

On 9/29/2015 9:02 AM, David Spain wrote:
Perhaps folks are so hell-bent on going to Mars they are willing to
accept an average life-span of 20 additional years or possibly quite
less (for a healthy Earth-bound twenty something) post-departure in
exchange for living on exotic real-estate? I don't know. People have
made those kinds of trade-offs in the past. But I think folks at least
deserve to KNOW when they are making that trade-off.

Dave


And think about what resources it would entail to provide hospice care
on Mars! What would that be like? Folks likely won't go quickly in an
unhealthy environment. Lingering would be about the worst one could do!
For the well-being of the colony, everyone should be willing to drink
the cool-aid....

Dave

On Tuesday, September 29, 2015 at 9:07:54 AM UTC-4, David Spain wrote:
On 9/29/2015 9:02 AM, David Spain wrote:
Perhaps folks are so hell-bent on going to Mars they are willing to
accept an average life-span of 20 additional years or possibly quite
less (for a healthy Earth-bound twenty something) post-departure in
exchange for living on exotic real-estate? I don't know. People have
made those kinds of trade-offs in the past. But I think folks at least
deserve to KNOW when they are making that trade-off.

Dave


And think about what resources it would entail to provide hospice care
on Mars! What would that be like? Folks likely won't go quickly in an
unhealthy environment. Lingering would be about the worst one could do!
For the well-being of the colony, everyone should be willing to drink
the cool-aid....

Dave

no just have some fast return to earth ability, ready and waiting at mars before the first crew arrives

In article ,
says...

no just have some fast return to earth ability,
ready and waiting at mars before the first crew arrives

Or magic pixie dust to wish them home in a flash. :-P

There really is no such thing as a truly fast return from Mars given
current proven propulsion technology.

Jeff
--
"the perennial claim that hypersonic airbreathing propulsion would
magically make space launch cheaper is nonsense -- LOX is much cheaper
than advanced airbreathing engines, and so are the tanks to put it in
and the extra thrust to carry it." - Henry Spencer

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 5:48:01 AM UTC-4, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...

no just have some fast return to earth ability,
ready and waiting at mars before the first crew arrives

Or magic pixie dust to wish them home in a flash. :-P

There really is no such thing as a truly fast return from Mars given
current proven propulsion technology.

Jeff

then you dont go untill such tech is available. and its needed for travel both ways.

spending near 2 years in transit for a flags and footprints mission is insane.

the quanity of consumable, not just for the round trip flying time, but for the mars ground time is way too much, along with all the health risks of so long in deep space.

besides which once a fast booster is designed and built it can be used to explore the entire solar system.

thats just not possible for human missions beyond mars

On 9/30/2015 7:47 AM, bob haller wrote:
On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 5:48:01 AM UTC-4, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...

no just have some fast return to earth ability,
ready and waiting at mars before the first crew arrives

Or magic pixie dust to wish them home in a flash. :-P

There really is no such thing as a truly fast return from Mars given
current proven propulsion technology.

Jeff

then you dont go untill such tech is available. and its needed for travel both ways.


Why devote such time and resources to the dead or soon to be? That makes
no sense at all.

Truth is if Mars G is that bad for you, the +G's on the way up or down
or the 0G on the way back would be worse and likely the 1G upon Earth
return (assuming you live that long) absolutely fatal....

You'll live longer staying put and die less painfully drinking the cool
aid. Not to mention being among the first to be buried on Mars!

But seriously, this is why we need to get that centrifuge lab flyer up
there in LEO. Right now we just don't know. This (hopefully) could just
be a fantasy!

Dave

In article ,
says...

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 5:48:01 AM UTC-4, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...

no just have some fast return to earth ability,
ready and waiting at mars before the first crew arrives

Or magic pixie dust to wish them home in a flash. :-P

There really is no such thing as a truly fast return from Mars given
current proven propulsion technology.

then you dont go untill such tech is available. and its needed for
travel both ways.

I call bull****!

Human exploration on earth has *never* set the bar that high, so why
should we require such a thing for space travel? Even today,
researchers in extreme locations know there isn't any such thing as
"fast evacuation". The risk of accidental injury, illness, and even
death is a real danger even on earth.

The base near the South Pole is a prime example. During the winter
there, evacuation certainly isn't fast, and that is a fairly large high
tech base, which is far more advanced than anything early Antarctic
explorers would have had access to.

spending near 2 years in transit for a flags and footprints mission
is insane.

Then don't volunteer for such a mission. Stay "safe" at home and let
someone else volunteer.

the quanity of consumable, not just for the round trip flying time,
but for the mars ground time is way too much, along with all the
health risks of so long in deep space.

That's your opinion, not fact. And there are engineering solutions to
the problems to enable a relatively safe trip. Connect your HAB to your
EDS using a long tether and spin the thing up during the long trip
to/from Mars and the microgravity problem is completely solved. Take
along enough water for a storm shelter and the radiation problem is
largely solved.

besides which once a fast booster is designed and built it can be
used to explore the entire solar system.

Or we could wait for magic pixie dust to become widely available so
astronauts can wish themselves home if they become homesick while
exploring the solar system.

thats just not possible for human missions beyond mars

Your opinion, so why don't you stay home while others venture forth to
explore both earth and our solar system?

Jeff
--
"the perennial claim that hypersonic airbreathing propulsion would
magically make space launch cheaper is nonsense -- LOX is much cheaper
than advanced airbreathing engines, and so are the tanks to put it in
and the extra thrust to carry it." - Henry Spencer

On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 6:11:09 AM UTC-4, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 5:48:01 AM UTC-4, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...

no just have some fast return to earth ability,
ready and waiting at mars before the first crew arrives

Or magic pixie dust to wish them home in a flash. :-P

There really is no such thing as a truly fast return from Mars given
current proven propulsion technology.

then you dont go untill such tech is available. and its needed for
travel both ways.

I call bull****!

Human exploration on earth has *never* set the bar that high, so why
should we require such a thing for space travel? Even today,
researchers in extreme locations know there isn't any such thing as
"fast evacuation". The risk of accidental injury, illness, and even
death is a real danger even on earth.

The base near the South Pole is a prime example. During the winter
there, evacuation certainly isn't fast, and that is a fairly large high
tech base, which is far more advanced than anything early Antarctic
explorers would have had access to.

spending near 2 years in transit for a flags and footprints mission
is insane.

Then don't volunteer for such a mission. Stay "safe" at home and let
someone else volunteer.

the quanity of consumable, not just for the round trip flying time,
but for the mars ground time is way too much, along with all the
health risks of so long in deep space.

That's your opinion, not fact. And there are engineering solutions to
the problems to enable a relatively safe trip. Connect your HAB to your
EDS using a long tether and spin the thing up during the long trip
to/from Mars and the microgravity problem is completely solved. Take
along enough water for a storm shelter and the radiation problem is
largely solved.

besides which once a fast booster is designed and built it can be
used to explore the entire solar system.

Or we could wait for magic pixie dust to become widely available so
astronauts can wish themselves home if they become homesick while
exploring the solar system.

thats just not possible for human missions beyond mars

Your opinion, so why don't you stay home while others venture forth to
explore both earth and our solar system?

Jeff
--

it would be a mistake to send a crew to mars and have them die. it would set back exploration a lot.

no magic pixie dust, just solid research........

hopefully saner heads will rule before we spend probably over a trillion bucks and possibly kill a crew.

"Jeff Findley" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 5:48:01 AM UTC-4, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...

no just have some fast return to earth ability,
ready and waiting at mars before the first crew arrives

Or magic pixie dust to wish them home in a flash. :-P

There really is no such thing as a truly fast return from Mars given
current proven propulsion technology.

then you dont go untill such tech is available. and its needed for
travel both ways.

I call bull****!

I agree... but...

America really has become a country afraid often to take risks, especially
high-profile risks.


Human exploration on earth has *never* set the bar that high, so why
should we require such a thing for space travel? Even today,
researchers in extreme locations know there isn't any such thing as
"fast evacuation". The risk of accidental injury, illness, and even
death is a real danger even on earth.

The base near the South Pole is a prime example. During the winter
there, evacuation certainly isn't fast, and that is a fairly large high
tech base, which is far more advanced than anything early Antarctic
explorers would have had access to.

True, but most Americans couldn't name a single Antarctic researcher. I'll
bet come a Mars mission they'll be able to name at least one if not most of
them.

And this is the problem. If some anonymous American dies at the South Pole,
it'll make the news for one evening and then folks will move on. If an
astronaut dies, it's a national tragedy and commissions will be formed.

I don't always agree with this, but I think it's the reality we're in.

It's one reason in a sense I both think a private mission is more and more
likely before a government one, but I favor it. I think fewer questions
will be asked and fewer people held responsible.



spending near 2 years in transit for a flags and footprints mission
is insane.

Then don't volunteer for such a mission. Stay "safe" at home and let
someone else volunteer.

Agreed. I think if Musk realistically was ready to go tomorrow he'd have no
problem finding volunteers.


the quanity of consumable, not just for the round trip flying time,
but for the mars ground time is way too much, along with all the
health risks of so long in deep space.

That's your opinion, not fact. And there are engineering solutions to
the problems to enable a relatively safe trip. Connect your HAB to your
EDS using a long tether and spin the thing up during the long trip
to/from Mars and the microgravity problem is completely solved. Take
along enough water for a storm shelter and the radiation problem is
largely solved.


And this is the beauty of SpaceX. The cost of mass to orbit is dropping
quickly. Gong to Mars is definitely a "mass problem". Throw enough mass at
it and you solve a LOT of problems. It's cheaper right now and will happen
sooner than waiting for a fast booster.


besides which once a fast booster is designed and built it can be
used to explore the entire solar system.

Or we could wait for magic pixie dust to become widely available so
astronauts can wish themselves home if they become homesick while
exploring the solar system.

thats just not possible for human missions beyond mars

Your opinion, so why don't you stay home while others venture forth to
explore both earth and our solar system?

We used to have multi-year whaling missions where the crew wouldn't see
their family for years. A Mars or past Mars mission it's just a matter of
light speed delays. Not years.



Jeff

--
Greg D. Moore http://greenmountainsoftware.wordpress.com/
CEO QuiCR: Quick, Crowdsourced Responses. http://www.quicr.net

"bob haller" wrote in message
...

On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 6:11:09 AM UTC-4, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 5:48:01 AM UTC-4, Jeff Findley
wrote:
In article ,
says...

no just have some fast return to earth ability,
ready and waiting at mars before the first crew arrives

Or magic pixie dust to wish them home in a flash. :-P

There really is no such thing as a truly fast return from Mars given
current proven propulsion technology.

then you dont go untill such tech is available. and its needed for
travel both ways.

I call bull****!

Human exploration on earth has *never* set the bar that high, so why
should we require such a thing for space travel? Even today,
researchers in extreme locations know there isn't any such thing as
"fast evacuation". The risk of accidental injury, illness, and even
death is a real danger even on earth.

The base near the South Pole is a prime example. During the winter
there, evacuation certainly isn't fast, and that is a fairly large high
tech base, which is far more advanced than anything early Antarctic
explorers would have had access to.

spending near 2 years in transit for a flags and footprints mission
is insane.

Then don't volunteer for such a mission. Stay "safe" at home and let
someone else volunteer.

the quanity of consumable, not just for the round trip flying time,
but for the mars ground time is way too much, along with all the
health risks of so long in deep space.

That's your opinion, not fact. And there are engineering solutions to
the problems to enable a relatively safe trip. Connect your HAB to your
EDS using a long tether and spin the thing up during the long trip
to/from Mars and the microgravity problem is completely solved. Take
along enough water for a storm shelter and the radiation problem is
largely solved.

besides which once a fast booster is designed and built it can be
used to explore the entire solar system.

Or we could wait for magic pixie dust to become widely available so
astronauts can wish themselves home if they become homesick while
exploring the solar system.

thats just not possible for human missions beyond mars

Your opinion, so why don't you stay home while others venture forth to
explore both earth and our solar system?

Jeff
--

it would be a mistake to send a crew to mars and have them die. it would
set back exploration a lot.

Yes, it would be a mistake to send a crew to Mars and have them die. That's
why you don't "have them die" but you take reasonable measures that are most
likely to keep them alive.



no magic pixie dust, just solid research........

hopefully saner heads will rule before we spend probably over a trillion
bucks and possibly kill a crew.

--
Greg D. Moore http://greenmountainsoftware.wordpress.com/
CEO QuiCR: Quick, Crowdsourced Responses. http://www.quicr.net