Wouldnt it be wonderful:)

if at least one of the apollo astronauts lives long enough to go back to the moon, perhaps on a commercial vehicle?

bob haller wrote:

if at least one of the apollo astronauts lives long enough to go back to the moon, perhaps on a commercial vehicle?

Don't be silly. Why would anyone use up a crew slot just to send an
old geezer as a publicity stunt (even assuming they could pass a
flight physical these days)?


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn

In article ,
says...

bob haller wrote:

if at least one of the apollo astronauts lives long enough to go back to the moon, perhaps on a commercial vehicle?

Don't be silly. Why would anyone use up a crew slot just to send an
old geezer as a publicity stunt (even assuming they could pass a
flight physical these days)?

Not that I'm completely agreeing with Bob, but remember John Glenn's
shuttle flight? Yes, it was mostly political, but it was also publicity
for NASA. NASA made up the "science" bit of studying the effects on him
after the fact.

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.

On Monday, August 8, 2016 at 6:43:11 AM UTC+12, bob haller wrote:
if at least one of the apollo astronauts lives long enough to go back to the moon, perhaps on a commercial vehicle?

I spoke with Edgar Mitchell about that back in 1996 when I was promoting GreenSpace TSTO-RLV in DC at the time. It certainly would be wonderful. He was enthusiastic too! It would give all the assholes who say they didn't go pause.

My friend Carl Sagan said to me during the switch-on ceremony of Project Beta that NASA was responsible for the bad publicity due to the abject lack of progress in our space faring capacity since the early 70s. We should have had a Little America type base on the moon, and people on Mars by the 1980s.

On Monday, August 8, 2016 at 1:17:20 PM UTC+12, William Mook wrote:
On Monday, August 8, 2016 at 6:43:11 AM UTC+12, bob haller wrote:
if at least one of the apollo astronauts lives long enough to go back to the moon, perhaps on a commercial vehicle?

I spoke with Edgar Mitchell about that back in 1996 when I was promoting GreenSpace TSTO-RLV in DC at the time. It certainly would be wonderful. He was enthusiastic too! It would give all the assholes who say they didn't go pause.

My friend Carl Sagan said to me during the switch-on ceremony of Project Beta that NASA was responsible for the bad publicity due to the abject lack of progress in our space faring capacity since the early 70s. We should have had a Little America type base on the moon, and people on Mars by the 1980s.

The Greenspace TSTO-RLV consisted of an aerospike nozzle on the first stage, equipped with four RL-10 pump sets and one SSME pump set - each feeding different nozzles in a segmented combustion chamber forming a ring around the base of the first stage. 500,000 lbf thrust from the SSME pumpset and 100,000 lbf thrust from the four RL-10 pumps - each of the RL-10 pumps throttled back to a total of 20,000 lbf.

At 1.28 gees at lift off, the take off weight is 466,500 lbs with a 600,000 lbf total thrust at lift off. The entire system was 12.5% structure fraction throughout.

First Stage consists of a 27.5 ft diameter spherical hydrogen tank sitting atop a ring of eight tanks 9.6 ft in diameter - forming the first stage. The inert weight of the stage is 62,500 lbs and the weight of the hydrogen in the larger tank totals 47,367.2 lbs whilst the weight of the oxygen in the smaller tanks totals 260,519.4 lbs.

Second Stage consists of a 17.5 ft diameter spherical hydrogen tank sitting atop a ring of eight tanks 6.1 ft in diameter - forming the second stage. The inert weight of the stage is 16,200 lbs. The weight of the hydrogen in the larger stage is 12,278.9 lbs whilst the weight of the liquid oxygen in the smaller thanks is 67,533.7 lbs.

The weight of the payload is 33,600 lbs.

First stage:
Inert 62,500.0 lbs
LOX: 260,519.4 lbs
LH2: 47,367.2 lbs

Second stage:
Inert: 16,200.0 lbs
LOX: 67,533.7 lbs
LH2: 12,278.9 lbs

Payload: 33,600.0 lbs

TOTAL: 466,499.2 lbs

Thrust: 600,000.0 lbf

Acceleration: 1.286 gee at lift off.

The first stage is a truncated cone that has a 33.6 ft diameter base, the first stage is 28 ft tall and has a 21.5 ft diameter section on top. The second stage has a 21.5 ft diameter base and is 18 ft tall with a 14 ft diameter section on top. The payload section consists of a 63 foot tall cone with a 14 ft diameter base. 109 ft tall.

A third stage consists of the NEBA III reactor. The space reactor bimodal system, which I defined in White House study for Earth orbital missions, for OSTP at the White House for the Clinton Administration, provides

(1) 10 kWe power,
(2) 225 lbf thrust, (4.17 megawatt peak power)
(3) 850 s Isp, (18,640 mph exhaust speed)
(4) with a 3600 lb system mass.

Now, with the NEBA III third stage, 30,000 lbs capability exists for this two stage fully reusable launch vehicle.

The first stage landed downrange on a floating platform, was refuelled to 11% capacity and fired back to the launch center for recovery. The second stage attained orbit, released its payload with the NEBA III reactor, and deorbits, landing at the launch center. The NEBA III fires and takes the payload to the desired location.

Taking the payload from LEO to GEO requires 8,738.3 lbs of LH2 to boost the payload to GEO to raise its speed from 17,664.6 mph to 23,286.0 mph.

When the payload reaches GEO it is travelling at 3,514.5 mph. It must achieve 6,826.6 mph to enter a circular orbit at GEO. Thus, speed must increase again by 3,348.1 mph. Another 3,494.3 lbs of LH2 is expended to achieve this. Another 708.4 lbs of LH2 is required to bring back the NEBA III reactor which re-enters and lands at the launch center and is reused.

A total of 17,049.1 lbs remains at GEO. This compares favourably to the SpaceX Falcon which has 28,990 lbs to LEO and 10,690 lbs to a 27 degree GTO. Using a solid rocket kick stage to place a payload into GEO reduces this further.

The NEBA III stage with 10,782.6 lbs of LH2 takes a stage to the vicinity of the moon. It takes another 2,742.0 lbs of LH2 to enter a Low Lunar Orbit (LLO) From there astronauts use rocket belts burning LOX/LH2 propellant to land on the moon and return to the orbiting spacecraft. All parts are returned. 2,412.6 lbs of LH2 is used to return to Earth. A total of 14,062..7 lbs is delivered and returned from LLO.

281 lbs of LOX/LH2 propellant is used in a lunar landing and return rocket belt. Carrying an astronaut and equipment toalling 265 lbs. Seven astronauts with sufficient propellant to land on the moon and return to orbit three times each, is sent on each journey!

The 6,306.7 lb capsule with 5,901 lbs of propellant and 1,855 lbs of astronaut/biosuit - along with 3,600 lb NEBA III power supply and propulsion unit..

The 10 kWe power unit recycles water and air in the life support system and maintains a zero boil off cryogenic LOX/LH2 propellant.

There is a ten week training course and for each astronaut that goes to the moon commercially, there are three slots available, so only 1/3 of those who take the training will qualify. All must put $20 million down to enter the training. All who do not qualify are given a thorough review. If they wish to withdraw, they will be billed $1 million and the balance returned. If they wish to try again, they will be billed $2 million and the balance held - with an additional $2 million due at the time of their scheduled launch if they make it through the second time. This will continue for as many times they like.

Those that make the flight roster, will be scored and three will take 'command' positions. The top spot gets credentialed as a flight captain, and a $1.25 million credit against their $20 million cost. The second spot gets credentialed as flight second, and a $0.50 million credit against their $20 million cost. The third spot gets credentialed as flight engineer, and a $0.25 million credit against their $20 million cost. All command positions receive these benefits on this flight and all future flights.

That way all seats are paying seats.

Command positions take an additional five week course at no extra charge which must be completed and qualified prior to flight.

Seven seats earn $140 million per launch - and tie up the NEBA III and capsule, for two weeks. 3.5 days outbound from Earth. 3.5 days inbound from the Moon. 7 days in moon orbit - visiting 21 sites across the surface of the moon.

With three launchers and six capsules and six NEBA III stages, four lunar flights per month and a commercial payload per month - earning $140 million each - $700 million per month. $8.4 billion per year.

We have one outbound, one on orbit, one inbound, at all times - for lunar operations. We have a NEBA III flight for payload deployment or service or movement, per month. We have several systems being serviced for refurb and re-flight.

The SSME RL-10 hardware modified to support aerospike operation - cost $65 million for the SSME and $20 million for the RL-10. $85 million total. Another $35 million for airframe and other hardware. $120 million - $360 million overall. The entire programme costs $2.2 billion including launch and training and operations centre. $7.5 billion free cash flow each year.

Awesome.

With this hardware a flight to Diemos - with rocket belt flight to the Martian surface and return is achievable. The astronauts are placed in suspended animation for the period, and the nuclear power plant is used to melt ice on Diemos, and make propellant. Stored propellant is used to make the first landing and return. Experimentation to produce fuel in situ is performed. Both on Diemos and Phobos. Once successful, continued martian operations proceed until transfer back to Earth - using water to extend life support as well as propellant - with oxygen and water. Otherwise, the crew enters suspended animation again, and returns to Earth.

Automated probes across the solar system using the NEBA III as the power source and propulsion. Exploration of all the satellites and dwarf planets of the solar system. An interplanetary internet.

This is what I proposed back in the 1980s using this hardware.

Jeff Findley wrote:

In article ,
says...

bob haller wrote:

if at least one of the apollo astronauts lives long enough to go back to the moon, perhaps on a commercial vehicle?

Don't be silly. Why would anyone use up a crew slot just to send an
old geezer as a publicity stunt (even assuming they could pass a
flight physical these days)?

Not that I'm completely agreeing with Bob, but remember John Glenn's
shuttle flight? Yes, it was mostly political, but it was also publicity
for NASA. NASA made up the "science" bit of studying the effects on him
after the fact.


Glenn and Garn got seats because they were in Congress and could
control NASA funding. Evem at that, what they got was a SHUTTLE seat,
where many missions had spare seats.

None of that is going to be true for a commercial lunar mission....


--
"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."
-- Charles Pinckney

We need a new MookWord for Mookie's current tendency to claim
friendship with people who don't know Mook from Shinola.

William Mook wrote:

On Monday, August 8, 2016 at 6:43:11 AM UTC+12, bob haller wrote:
if at least one of the apollo astronauts lives long enough to go back to the moon, perhaps on a commercial vehicle?

I spoke with Edgar Mitchell about that back in 1996 when I was promoting GreenSpace TSTO-RLV in DC at the time. It certainly would be wonderful. He was enthusiastic too! It would give all the assholes who say they didn't go pause.

My friend Carl Sagan said to me during the switch-on ceremony of Project Beta that NASA was responsible for the bad publicity due to the abject lack of progress in our space faring capacity since the early 70s. We should have had a Little America type base on the moon, and people on Mars by the 1980s.


You apparently never knew Carl Sagan, who was pretty much an opponent
of manned space.


--
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the
soul with evil."
-- Socrates

William Mook wrote:

On Monday, August 8, 2016 at 10:12:31 AM UTC+12, Fred J. McCall wrote:
bob haller wrote:

if at least one of the apollo astronauts lives long enough to go back to the moon, perhaps on a commercial vehicle?

Don't be silly.

You're the one who is silly because you're not giving this adequate thought.


You wouldn't know 'adequate thought' if it bit you on the leg.


Why would anyone use up a crew slot just to send an
old geezer as a publicity stunt (even assuming they could pass a
flight physical these days)?

The question of the flight physical would be used as a point of drama in the documentary. You obviously don't know the third largest grossing documentary in film making history;


We're talking about an actual space program, not a reality show. It's
not "Survivor: Lunar Edition".

snip MookSpew


--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson

William Mook wrote:

On Monday, August 8, 2016 at 1:17:20 PM UTC+12, William Mook wrote:
On Monday, August 8, 2016 at 6:43:11 AM UTC+12, bob haller wrote:
if at least one of the apollo astronauts lives long enough to go back to the moon, perhaps on a commercial vehicle?

I spoke with Edgar Mitchell about that back in 1996 when I was promoting GreenSpace TSTO-RLV in DC at the time. It certainly would be wonderful. He was enthusiastic too! It would give all the assholes who say they didn't go pause.

My friend Carl Sagan said to me during the switch-on ceremony of Project Beta that NASA was responsible for the bad publicity due to the abject lack of progress in our space faring capacity since the early 70s. We should have had a Little America type base on the moon, and people on Mars by the 1980s.

The Greenspace TSTO-RLV consisted of an aerospike nozzle on the first stage, equipped with four RL-10 pump sets and one SSME pump set - each feeding different nozzles in a segmented combustion chamber forming a ring around the base of the first stage. 500,000 lbf thrust from the SSME pumpset and 100,000 lbf thrust from the four RL-10 pumps - each of the RL-10 pumps throttled back to a total of 20,000 lbf.


No, it didn't, because no such vehicle ever existed.

snip MookSpew of imaginary numbers about a non-existent rocket


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn

In article ,
says...

Jeff Findley wrote:

In article ,
says...

bob haller wrote:

if at least one of the apollo astronauts lives long enough to go back to the moon, perhaps on a commercial vehicle?

Don't be silly. Why would anyone use up a crew slot just to send an
old geezer as a publicity stunt (even assuming they could pass a
flight physical these days)?

Not that I'm completely agreeing with Bob, but remember John Glenn's
shuttle flight? Yes, it was mostly political, but it was also publicity
for NASA. NASA made up the "science" bit of studying the effects on him
after the fact.


Glenn and Garn got seats because they were in Congress and could
control NASA funding. Evem at that, what they got was a SHUTTLE seat,
where many missions had spare seats.

None of that is going to be true for a commercial lunar mission....

Agreed. I was just pointing out that strange things have happened in
the past resulting in a "geezernaut" flying. All of us here, at the
time, knew the Glenn decision was nothing but politics and pandering to
Congress to keep the money flowing. The "science" was made up after the
fact.

With commercial flights, it's more likely you'd see a high level
executive from the company fly using the b.s. argument that they're the
most qualified applicant within the company.

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.