New Shuttle-derived booster squabbles

On May 12, 10:49*pm, bob haller wrote:
On May 12, 10:34*pm, William Mook wrote:









Just as Philip Bono proposed converting an S-IVB into a SSTO system in
1967.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_SASSTO

A similar system can be developed around the External Tank, with a
return capsule carried in the inter-tank region and ejected laterally,
and an engine pod with 3 RS-68 engines fed by the tank with its own re-
entry capsule also returns. *This is similar to a smaller version of
another Bono design, OOST

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/oost.htm

LEO Payload: 454,500 kg (1,002,000 lb) to a 325 km orbit.

OOST: One stage Orbital Space Truck.
Status: Study 1963.
Gross mass: 8,527,400 kg (18,799,600 lb).
Payload: 454,500 kg (1,002,000 lb).
Structure 549.250 kg (1,208,350 lb).
Height: 102.00 m (334.00 ft).
Diameter: 21.30 m (69.80 ft).
Thrust: 103,660.80 kN (23,303,875 lbf).
Apogee: 325 km (201 mi).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_S...khttp://en.wik...

ETOST: External Tank Orbital Space Truck

* * Length: 153.8 ft (46.9 m)
* * Diameter: 27.6 ft (8.4 m)
* * Structu 58,500 lb (26,500 kg)
* * Gross Liftoff Weight: 1,680,000 lb (760,000 kg)
* * Return Capsule: *110,000 lb (50,000 kg) (Payload)
* * Engine Pod: 46,990 lb (21,359 kg)
* * Thrust: *2,267,460 lbf (10,106.2 kN)

The inter-tank region is

* * Length: 22.6 ft (6.9 m)
* * Diameter: 27.6 ft (8.4 m)
* * Volume: *54,085 ft3 (382.4 m3)
* * Payload: *50,000 kg (110,000 lb)

Compare this to the Space Shuttle payload bay

Payload to LEO *24,400 kg (53,600 lb)
Payload bay dimensions: 15 by 59 ft (4.6 by 18 m)
Payload Volume *10,426 ft3 * * *299 m3

Of course,the vehicle itself is only part of the cost equation. *The
other is the supply chain and launch infrastructure.

Now lets look at the Orion Crew Vehiclehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Orioncm.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.......

*Height: 10.8 ft (3.3 m)
*Diameter: 16.5 ft (5.0 m)
Capsule Mass: 8,913 kg (19,650 lb)

Five of these reusable capsules could be launched per flight.
Alternatively, five 'garages' around the circumference of the
intertank region are filled with 22,000 lbs (10,000 kg) each on
average. * Which might contain a Service Module, and propellant
supply.

Service Module Assembly:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...n_2009_version...

Service Module Mass: * *12,337 kg (27,198 lb)
Service Module Propellant Mass: * * * * 7,907 kg (17,433 lb)

Capsule + Service Mass: * * * * 21,250 kg (46,848 lb)

Of course payloads can be stored in the garage without a return
provision, so satellites can be ejected.

Costs of $100 million per launch are possible, depending on supply
chain and infrastructure investment. *This reduces the launch cost to
$20 million per 'garage slot'

The inter-tank region may also carry the Altair lunar Lander

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...air-Lander.jpg

Description
Role: * Lunar landing
Crew: * 4
Dimensions
Height: * * * * 9.7 m (32 ft)
Diameter: * * * 7.5 m (25 ft)
Landing gear span: * * *14.8 m (49 ft)
Volume: * * * * 31.8 m3 (1,120 cu ft)
Masses
Ascent module: *10,809 kg (23,830 lb)
Descent module: * * * * 35,055 kg (77,280 lb)
Total: *45,864 kg (101,110 lb)
Rocket engines[1]
RCS * * 445 N (100 lbf)
Ascent Propulsion System
(LOX/LH2) RL-10 derivative x 1: * * * * 44.5 kN (4.47 LTf)
Descent Propulsion System
(LOX/LH2) RL-10 derivative x 4: * * * * 66.7 kN (6.69 LTf)
Performance
Endurance: * * *7 days (Sortie missions)
Up to 210 days (Outpost missions)
Aposelene:
Periselene: * * surface

But the system might have trouble lifting the Saturn IV-B derived
Earth Departure Stage

http://www.spacelaunchreport.com/ares5.html

S-IVBhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Saturn_IB_S-IVB-20...

Size
Height *17.8 m (58.4 ft)
Diameter * * * *6.6 m (21.7 ft)
Mass * *119,900 kg (253,000 lb)
Engine details
Engines * * * * 1 J-2 engine
Thrust *1,001 kN (225,000 lbf)
Burn time * * * 475 seconds
Fuel * *LOX/LH2

The Falcon Heavy is capable of lifting 53,000 kg (116,600 lb) into
LEO. *So, a partly fueled S-IVB could be launched and refueled from
extra propellant carried aboard the ET on orbit. *It fires and
accelerates the Altair and Orion combination 3,961 m/sec - sufficient
to carry the assembly on a lunar free return trajectory with course
correction.

Four launches then:

Earth Departure Phase:

* *ETOOST: * * * * * 26,900 kg (Extra propellant)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *23,100 kg (Capsule + Service Module)

* *Falcon Heavy: * 53,000 kg (S-IVB - partly fueled)

Lunar Operations Phase:

* *ETOOST: * * * * * 50,000 kg (Extra Propellant)

* *Falcon Heavy: * *45,864 kg (Altair Lander)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *7,136 kg (Spare Capacity (consumables))

The spare propellant is transferred to the SIV-B stage (Earth
Departure Stage) that stage is docked with the Altair Lander and then,
the Orion Capsule/Service Module.

A lunar landing and return with four astronauts is carried out at $500
million per flight. *A flight per month.

The External Tanks themselves may be made into space station
components or equipped with smaller engines, with the return pod
removed, made into an Earth Departure Stage of its own.

http://aeromaster.tripod.com/grp.htm

* ETOOST: * * * * * 26,900 kg (Extra propellant)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *23,100 kg (Capsule + Service Module)

* ETOOST: * * * * *50,000 kg (Extra Propellant)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * 12,500 kg (Extra Capacity)

Lunar Operations Phase:

* *ETOOST: * * * * *50,000 kg (Extra Propellant)

* *ETOOST: * * * * *45,864 kg (Altair Lander)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *4,136 kg (Extra Consumables)

So, a single ET without its RS-68 engine pod, using the Altair descent
engines to boost the entire system from LEO to Lunar Free Return
Trajectory we have eliminated the need to develop an Earth Departure
Stage. *We have also increased payload capacity to Luna by 16.6 metric
tons. *This means we can stay on the moon longer, and even drop to the
moon on a one way flight, provisions for a lunar base. *That is we can
take the money saved on the EDS and use it to make the Altair more
sophisticated, and develop a lunar base.

dream on, the US doesnt have the money e are essentially bankrupt,
and just try to spend money on space while cutting SS medicare
etc.....

Governments can print as much money as they like. The problem is we
created a privately owned central bank in 1913, the Federal Reserve,
who then proceeded to make profits through finance capital, rather
than production capital. Along the way we created totally uneeded
burdens on our economy. Income taxes, World Wars, Cold Wars,
Intelligence Wars, Drug Wars, massive military and police
infrastructures, and now a War on Terror. Throughout it all, we
convinced ourselves that we had to borrow all the money we needed at
interest from the owners of the Federal Reserve who created the money
they loaned us out of nothing and gathered interest on it indebting
the entire nation to the Bank owners.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm3DixfL9o0

In 2008 after the bank collapse began to undermine our entire economy,
the United States Congress on the advice of the Federal Reserve
approved loan guarantees totaling over $27 trillion for the Federal
Reserve. The goal was to secure new lending within the USA and end
the housing crisis and restart the economy my letting the bank
monetize productive activities. That was two years ago.

A reporter at Reuters asked where the money went? He was told its
none of his business. He sued. He died unexpectedly. But, Reuters
continued the lawsuit in honor of the reporter. As a result, the Fed
released information on $7 trillion of the $27 trillion. It went,
nearly all of it, to overseas owners of the Federal Reserve who then
invested it in India, China, Brazil Russia, even Libya - none of it
went to reduce home mortgage rates, support small business growth, or
organize major capital intensive companies like GM to compete in the
global marketplace.

http://www.articlesbase.com/videos/5min/514836258