Could/Should Skylab Have Been Saved?

"Scott Hedrick" wrote in message
...

"Derek Lyons" wrote in message
...
And is there really any advantage over using, say, PDF?

Other than the fact that PDF is a bloated nightmare that doesn't
accomplish the tasks needed?

Besides- one of the benefits of PDFs is that they are supposed to be
fixed.
Hard to edit a fixed file.

Key word is "fixed".

You can "lock" word files. They're a bit easier to unlock, but PDFs aren't
magically impossible to unlock either.

(I've ironically seen that argument used in my own company for some
documents. "Oh, we put it in PDF so no one could alter it." forgetting
that we have people whose jobs ARE to alter PDF files for our customers.)

"Greg D. Moore (Strider)" wrote in message
ink.net...
You can "lock" word files. They're a bit easier to unlock, but PDFs aren't
magically impossible to unlock either.

After Adobe Acrobat tried to kill me, I'm wary of using anything based on
their standard.

"Greg D. Moore (Strider)" wrote:
You can "lock" word files. They're a bit easier to unlock, but PDFs aren't
magically impossible to unlock either.

PDF is a final format file, it is not editable.

You can import a PDF file into certain software and create a NEW
document. You can then edit the resulting new document postscript to set
the various parameters to fake being the same document as the last
original one. But it is still a new document. If you just create the PDF
from your copy, the resulting PDF will not have the same document
attributes as the oribinal (creator etc etc).

Also,

Depending on the software used, text blocks may be broken up.

for instance, the following postscript code

(Hello World) show

and

(Hello) show +5 0 rmoveto (World) show

will produce output that looks the same. But when imported into a
document for editing, it will be different since in the first place,
Hello World will be in the same text block, whereas in the second case,
it will be in two separate text blocks, and there will not be a space character.

"Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" wrote:


"Scott Hedrick" wrote in message
.. .

"Derek Lyons" wrote in message
...
And is there really any advantage over using, say, PDF?

Other than the fact that PDF is a bloated nightmare that doesn't
accomplish the tasks needed?

Besides- one of the benefits of PDFs is that they are supposed to be
fixed. Hard to edit a fixed file.

Key word is "fixed".

You can "lock" word files. They're a bit easier to unlock, but PDFs aren't
magically impossible to unlock either.

And how precisely is the ability to [lock|fix] a document a benefit
here anyhow?

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

(Derek Lyons) writes:

Jochem Huhmann wrote:
But these are *office* applications for quite different tasks and surely
in no way specified and tested against these specifations as one would
assume for space flight purposes.

ROTFLMAO. Just how complex do you want transferring some text to be?

As complex as necessary to get the mission safely done?

I just hope they use a set of standard templates, if they can't afford some
SGML- or XML-DTD with semantic markup and some meaningful display via custom
software.

It's text and tabular data being transferred - they don't need any
complex geek pr0n to handle this - Word and Excel work just fine.

Yeah, I think just text and tabular data could be transferred by sending
text and tabular data (as in naked text and CSV files). When they're
using full-blown, virus-enabled Office apps for that they will have
needs for more than just text and tabular data.

And is there really any advantage over using, say, PDF?

Other than the fact that PDF is a bloated nightmare that doesn't
accomplish the tasks needed?

PDF is as bloated as the code creating it makes it. If all that's needed
is formatted text, both the PDF files and display applications can be
very lightweight. Word and Excel are not expecially bloatless, by the way.

There are more than enough ways to get this implemented over interfaces (like
file formats) that do *not* require running the flight software on the
same OS and the same hardware and the same commercial consumer apps that
may be used in mission planning or control.

If you'd paid even the slightest attention to this thread, as well as
many others, you'd know that the computers in question as used for
administrative tasks - not flight control tasks.

If you'd even read my paragraph above you'd know that I did not write
about "control tasks" but the software that is flown for administrative
tasks.


Jochem

--
"A designer knows he has arrived at perfection not when there is no
longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Jochem Huhmann wrote:

(Derek Lyons) writes:

Jochem Huhmann wrote:
But these are *office* applications for quite different tasks and surely
in no way specified and tested against these specifations as one would
assume for space flight purposes.

ROTFLMAO. Just how complex do you want transferring some text to be?

As complex as necessary to get the mission safely done?

Which is just about where they sit.

I just hope they use a set of standard templates, if they can't afford some
SGML- or XML-DTD with semantic markup and some meaningful display via custom
software.

It's text and tabular data being transferred - they don't need any
complex geek pr0n to handle this - Word and Excel work just fine.

Yeah, I think just text and tabular data could be transferred by sending
text and tabular data (as in naked text and CSV files). When they're
using full-blown, virus-enabled Office apps for that they will have
needs for more than just text and tabular data.

And then they'll need to perform the conversion to something useful -
as opposed to getting it in a useful format in the first place. (And
those on the ground will have to perform the opposite conversion -
from useful format to stripped format.)

There are more than enough ways to get this implemented over interfaces (like
file formats) that do *not* require running the flight software on the
same OS and the same hardware and the same commercial consumer apps that
may be used in mission planning or control.

If you'd paid even the slightest attention to this thread, as well as
many others, you'd know that the computers in question as used for
administrative tasks - not flight control tasks.

If you'd even read my paragraph above you'd know that I did not write
about "control tasks" but the software that is flown for administrative
tasks.

You meant you don't even have a clue what you wrote in the first
place? Because it sure doesn't jive with your reply above.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

"nmp" wrote in message
news
We were discussing compatibility. Last time I checked, plain old text
files were compatible with nearly everything. And faster too.


Yeah, but if it's simple to use, Congress won't feel we taxpayers got our
money's worth.

In sci.space.history Scott Hedrick wrote:

"Derek Lyons" wrote in message
...
And is there really any advantage over using, say, PDF?

Other than the fact that PDF is a bloated nightmare that doesn't
accomplish the tasks needed?

Besides- one of the benefits of PDFs is that they are supposed to be fixed.
Hard to edit a fixed file.


Uhh... try out Adobe Acrobat (not Reader!) some day...

--
Sander

+++ Out of cheese error +++

In sci.space.history John Doe wrote:
"Greg D. Moore (Strider)" wrote:
You can "lock" word files. They're a bit easier to unlock, but PDFs aren't
magically impossible to unlock either.

PDF is a final format file, it is not editable.

This is simply total crap.


You can import a PDF file into certain software and create a NEW
document. You can then edit the resulting new document postscript to set

Postscript? What postscript? We are talking about PDF here.

the various parameters to fake being the same document as the last
original one. But it is still a new document. If you just create the PDF
from your copy, the resulting PDF will not have the same document
attributes as the oribinal (creator etc etc).

Also,

Depending on the software used, text blocks may be broken up.

for instance, the following postscript code

(Hello World) show

and

(Hello) show +5 0 rmoveto (World) show

will produce output that looks the same. But when imported into a
document for editing, it will be different since in the first place,
Hello World will be in the same text block, whereas in the second case,
it will be in two separate text blocks, and there will not be a space character.

Not only is there now 'show' or 'rmoveto' but really - if the editor
opening the file can't recognize lines ditch it. Its npo good and there
is no real reason for it to suck that much.

--
Sander

+++ Out of cheese error +++

"Sander Vesik" wrote in message
...
In sci.space.history Scott Hedrick wrote:

"Derek Lyons" wrote in message
...
And is there really any advantage over using, say, PDF?

Other than the fact that PDF is a bloated nightmare that doesn't
accomplish the tasks needed?

Besides- one of the benefits of PDFs is that they are supposed to be
fixed.
Hard to edit a fixed file.


Uhh... try out Adobe Acrobat (not Reader!) some day...

I have a copy of it- I've been using it for years, at least, until it tried
to kill me.