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Thunderstorms produce gamma rays!



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 3rd 11, 06:22 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
Yousuf Khan[_2_]
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Posts: 1,692
Default Thunderstorms produce gamma rays!

Not sure why a non-nuclear process such as thunder should produce gamma
rays. Gamma rays are usually only produced by activities within the
nuclei of atoms.

Yousuf Khan

***

Physics - Chance of thunder—and gamma-ray flashes
"In a paper appearing in Physical Review Letters, scientists in Italy
(Tavani et al.) present new space-based observations of gamma-ray
emissions from thunderclouds, called terrestrial gamma-ray flashes
(TGFs). Their analysis [1] suggests that storms located deep within our
atmosphere sometimes produce bursts of electrons with energies up to 100
MeV. Although the exact mechanism is still uncertain, these electrons
are believed to be accelerated by strong electric fields within the
thunderclouds. As the energetic electrons propagate through air, they
emit bremsstrahlung photons, which can then be observed hundreds of
kilometers away by spacecraft. The new observations, which were made by
the Italian Space Agency’s AGILE spacecraft, show for the first time the
remarkable extent of the terrestrial gamma-ray flash energy spectrum
[1]. Understanding how thunderstorms are able to produce such energetic
gamma rays should tell us more about the electrical environment inside
these storms and what conditions are present during lightning
initiation—questions that continue to confound us even 250 years after
Benjamin Franklin’s kite experiment."
http://physics.aps.org/articles/v4/1
  #2  
Old January 3rd 11, 06:24 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
bert
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Posts: 1,997
Default Thunderstorms produce gamma rays!

On Jan 3, 12:22*pm, Yousuf Khan wrote:
Not sure why a non-nuclear process such as thunder should produce gamma
rays. Gamma rays are usually only produced by activities within the
nuclei of atoms.

* * * * Yousuf Khan

***

Physics - Chance of thunder—and gamma-ray flashes
"In a paper appearing in Physical Review Letters, scientists in Italy
(Tavani et al.) present new space-based observations of gamma-ray
emissions from thunderclouds, called terrestrial gamma-ray flashes
(TGFs). Their analysis [1] suggests that storms located deep within our
atmosphere sometimes produce bursts of electrons with energies up to 100
MeV. Although the exact mechanism is still uncertain, these electrons
are believed to be accelerated by strong electric fields within the
thunderclouds. As the energetic electrons propagate through air, they
emit bremsstrahlung photons, which can then be observed hundreds of
kilometers away by spacecraft. The new observations, which were made by
the Italian Space Agency’s AGILE spacecraft, show for the first time the
remarkable extent of the terrestrial gamma-ray flash energy spectrum
[1]. Understanding how thunderstorms are able to produce such energetic
gamma rays should tell us more about the electrical environment inside
these storms and what conditions are present during lightning
initiation—questions that continue to confound us even 250 years after
Benjamin Franklin’s kite experiment."http://physics.aps.org/articles/v4/1


Flash of "white" light has gamma photons mixed in TreBert
  #3  
Old January 3rd 11, 11:16 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
wbeaty
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Posts: 1
Default Thunderstorms produce gamma rays!

On Jan 3, 9:22 am, Yousuf Khan wrote:
Not sure why a non-nuclear process such as thunder should produce gamma
rays. Gamma rays are usually only produced by activities within the
nuclei of atoms.

Physics - Chance of thunder—and gamma-ray flashes
"In a paper appearing in Physical Review Letters, scientists in Italy
(Tavani et al.) present new space-based observations of gamma-ray


Red sprites etc., are supposedly based on MeV electron avalanche.
Gamma rays expected.

What's not expected is this:

Dwyer group 10Mfps X-ray camera (30 NaI scintillators behind a lead
pinhole) detects x-ray emission from (all?) lightning leader tips
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2010AGUFMAE11A0329S
http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/201...JD012039.shtml
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl...-rays+agu+2010

Normal sparks' electron avalanches exist on a scale of mm. If e-
fields could momentarily get to 100KV/mm during breakdown, you'd get x-
ray glow discharge instead of UV glow discharge. Estimated airline
passenger dose from fuselage strike: 10,000 mRem. It's not the body
scanners we should worry about?

((((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( (o) ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty Research Engineer
beaty, chem washingtonedu UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74
billb, eskimocom Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700
ph 206-543-6195 http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/
  #4  
Old January 4th 11, 01:14 AM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
Darwin123
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Posts: 247
Default Thunderstorms produce gamma rays!

On Jan 3, 5:16*pm, wbeaty wrote:

Normal sparks' electron avalanches exist on a scale of mm. * If e-
fields could momentarily get to 100KV/mm during breakdown, you'd get x-
ray glow discharge instead of UV glow discharge. * Estimated airline
passenger dose from fuselage strike: 10,000 mRem. * It's not the body
scanners we should worry about?

After the fuselage on my aeroplane is hit by a large lightening
bolt, I will not worry about radiation-induced cancer.
  #5  
Old January 4th 11, 03:29 AM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
Yousuf Khan[_2_]
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Posts: 1,692
Default Thunderstorms produce gamma rays!

On 03/01/2011 5:16 PM, wbeaty wrote:
Red sprites etc., are supposedly based on MeV electron avalanche.
Gamma rays expected.


Let me see if I can get my head around this. So normally when we get
gamma rays, it's as a result of nucleons displacing small distances, but
due to their large masses, it creates a high energy photon. However to
get electrons to produce gamma rays, one needs large displacements due
to their low masses?

Yousuf Khan
  #6  
Old January 4th 11, 03:31 AM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
Sam Wormley[_2_]
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Posts: 3,966
Default Thunderstorms produce gamma rays!

On 1/3/11 8:29 PM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 03/01/2011 5:16 PM, wbeaty wrote:
Red sprites etc., are supposedly based on MeV electron avalanche.
Gamma rays expected.


Let me see if I can get my head around this. So normally when we get
gamma rays, it's as a result of nucleons displacing small distances, but
due to their large masses, it creates a high energy photon. However to
get electrons to produce gamma rays, one needs large displacements due
to their low masses?

Yousuf Khan


Distances???

How about Energy changes!
  #7  
Old January 4th 11, 04:11 AM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
dlzc
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Posts: 1,426
Default Thunderstorms produce gamma rays!

Dear Yousuf Khan:

On Jan 3, 10:22*am, Yousuf Khan wrote:
Not sure why a non-nuclear process such as [lightning]
should produce gamma rays.


Lightning voltages: billions of volts
Gamma rays: 100,000 eV

How could they *not* produce gamma rays, when electrons are braked at
the end of a long "fall" through the vacuum of the plasma discharge?

Gamma rays are usually only produced by activities
within the nuclei of atoms.


I've got news for you. Place some scotch tape on a mirror's surface,
and move it to a very dark room. Rip the tape off very fast, and you
can see some light. If you were to check, you'd also find you'd
generated some X-rays.

In the stretch film dispensers that wrap pallets, they can actually
expose film in the canister...

David A. Smith
  #8  
Old January 4th 11, 04:53 AM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
spudnik
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Posts: 220
Default Thunderstorms produce gamma rays!

what device captures the gamma waves?

I don't buy into the newtonian corpuscle "theory,"
no matter how energetic it is.

maybe Tyndall didn't know about adiabatic rate, either, and, so,
What?... I'm sure that Ahrrenius did know about it, but
that doesn't mean that his model of a glass house was entirely
adequate;
does it?

Tyndall had rather crude measuring instruments by today's standard and


the real issue is that Maxwell flubbed
on Ampere's "longitudinal force,"
although it's a simple experiment ... haven't done it;
just read L. Hecht's article & *he* did.

M&M found a regular, very small anomaly, which is almost
always refered to as a "null result" by the encyclopaedists (and
the googoloographers). what put it to rest was the development
of "atomism," namely electromagnetism, and it is almost
that simple.

Alfven probably put the Big Bang to bed but, again,
the encyclopaedists are about N decades behind the physics
of plasma, and *he* was also put finally to rest,
in the meantime.

the only real problem with special relativity is the slogans
about phase-space (spacetime), but Minkowski was one
to put his pants on, one lightcone at a time, two.

put to bed by the Michelson-Morley experiment put this firmly


--GMMXI, not myIQ; yours?
http://wlym.com
  #9  
Old January 4th 11, 03:34 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
dlzc
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Posts: 1,426
Default Thunderstorms produce gamma rays!

Dear spudnik:

On Jan 3, 8:53*pm, spudnik wrote:
what device captures the gamma waves?


Lots of different types of detectors:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_spectroscopy
.... and follow its various links...

I don't buy into the newtonian corpuscle "theory,"
no matter how energetic it is.


Come up with a way to describe the photoelectric effect *exactly*,
without it. Lots of people will name you a hero. Resonance does not
work.

David A. Smith
  #10  
Old January 5th 11, 02:09 AM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
Darwin123
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Posts: 247
Default Thunderstorms produce gamma rays!

On Jan 4, 9:34*am, dlzc wrote:
Dear spudnik:

On Jan 3, 8:53*pm, spudnik wrote:

what device captures the gamma waves?


Lots of different types of detectors:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_spectroscopy
... and follow its various links...

I don't buy into the newtonian corpuscle "theory,"
no matter how energetic it is.


Come up with a way to describe the photoelectric effect *exactly*,
without it. *Lots of people will name you a hero. *Resonance does not
work.

David A. Smith

Maybe he didn't mean it that way. Maybe he meant that photons
were not Newtonian corpuscles. If that is what he meant, I would have
to agree with him.
The Newtonian corpuscles are not equivalent to photons. Photons
don't obey the Newtonian laws of force.
Photons can't accelerate like Newtonian corpuscles. Photons move
at "c" in all reference frames. They don't have a rest mass. You can't
even count photons precisely because of the uncertainty relations. In
principle, one could count Newtonian corpuscles precisely.
The photons postulated by Einstein and others are not Newtonian
corpuscles. In introductory science classes, the two theories are
presented as being equivalent. They are not. There are similarities,
but there are also big differences. "The photon" was a new concept
when it was first introduced by Einstein et al.
 




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