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Orion PDR slides to mid 2009



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 31st 08, 04:05 PM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy
Pat Flannery
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Posts: 18,466
Default Orion PDR slides to mid 2009

http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/20...pdr_slips.html

Pat
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  #2  
Old August 31st 08, 04:23 PM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy
Alan Erskine[_2_]
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Posts: 1,316
Default Orion PDR slides to mid 2009

"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
dakotatelephone...
http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/20...pdr_slips.html

Pat


They're having all sorts of problems; is this kind of thing unusual in a
major program? I mean, to have this many problems this early (booster, CM
etc)...


  #3  
Old September 1st 08, 12:58 AM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy
Derek Lyons
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Posts: 2,999
Default Orion PDR slides to mid 2009

"Alan Erskine" wrote:

"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
hdakotatelephone...
http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/20...pdr_slips.html

Pat


They're having all sorts of problems; is this kind of thing unusual in a
major program? I mean, to have this many problems this early (booster, CM
etc)...


It's not unusual at all - the capsule programs of the 60's had it just
as bad, as did the Shuttle. The difference it that because of the
'net the problems are visible to thousands of armchair engineers very
nearly in real time.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
  #4  
Old September 1st 08, 04:09 PM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy
Alain Fournier[_2_]
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Posts: 373
Default Orion PDR slides to mid 2009

Derek Lyons wrote:

"Alan Erskine" wrote:


"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
thdakotatelephone...

http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/20...pdr_slips.html

Pat


They're having all sorts of problems; is this kind of thing unusual in a
major program? I mean, to have this many problems this early (booster, CM
etc)...



It's not unusual at all - the capsule programs of the 60's had it just
as bad, as did the Shuttle. The difference it that because of the
'net the problems are visible to thousands of armchair engineers very
nearly in real time.


There is also the difference that in the sixties, those building space ships were considered the cutting edge of
engineering. Problems were considered normal. Nowadays, people expect engineers to be able to re-solve the problems that
were already solved in the fifties and sixties without much difficulty.


Alain Fournier
  #5  
Old September 1st 08, 08:26 PM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy
Alan Erskine[_2_]
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Posts: 1,316
Default Orion PDR slides to mid 2009

"Alain Fournier" wrote in message
...

There is also the difference that in the sixties, those building space
ships were considered the cutting edge of engineering. Problems were
considered normal. Nowadays, people expect engineers to be able to
re-solve the problems that were already solved in the fifties and sixties
without much difficulty.


Then why can't they? Why do such problems keep happening?


  #6  
Old September 2nd 08, 07:57 AM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy
Derek Lyons
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Posts: 2,999
Default Orion PDR slides to mid 2009

Alain Fournier wrote:

Derek Lyons wrote:

"Alan Erskine" wrote:

They're having all sorts of problems; is this kind of thing unusual in a
major program? I mean, to have this many problems this early (booster, CM
etc)...


It's not unusual at all - the capsule programs of the 60's had it just
as bad, as did the Shuttle. The difference it that because of the
'net the problems are visible to thousands of armchair engineers very
nearly in real time.


There is also the difference that in the sixties, those building space ships were
considered the cutting edge of engineering. Problems were considered normal.


Given the very tiny number of generations of craft flown, and the
constraints on the craft, and the extreme environments involved, and
the required performance...

They're still on the cutting edge.

Nowadays, people expect engineers to be able to re-solve the problems that
were already solved in the fifties and sixties without much difficulty.


People hold all manner of dammfool ignorant unfounded beliefs.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
  #7  
Old September 2nd 08, 12:52 PM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy
Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)
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Posts: 2,865
Default Orion PDR slides to mid 2009

"Derek Lyons" wrote in message
...
Alain Fournier wrote:

Derek Lyons wrote:

"Alan Erskine" wrote:

They're having all sorts of problems; is this kind of thing unusual in a
major program? I mean, to have this many problems this early (booster,
CM
etc)...

It's not unusual at all - the capsule programs of the 60's had it just
as bad, as did the Shuttle. The difference it that because of the
'net the problems are visible to thousands of armchair engineers very
nearly in real time.


There is also the difference that in the sixties, those building space
ships were
considered the cutting edge of engineering. Problems were considered
normal.


Given the very tiny number of generations of craft flown, and the
constraints on the craft, and the extreme environments involved, and
the required performance...

They're still on the cutting edge.


I will grant a lot of that. And the fact that much of the generation of
engineers that designed the last US manned space craft is retiring or
retired and even more of the generation that designed the last manned US
manned capsule are retired.

However, I think one can easily argue that with Ares I, they took a design
with known issues and went from there.

And unlike spacecraft design, there are a number of active engineers with
recent experience designing boosters.


Nowadays, people expect engineers to be able to re-solve the problems that
were already solved in the fifties and sixties without much difficulty.


People hold all manner of dammfool ignorant unfounded beliefs.


But one shouldn't also excuse away some of their mistakes either.



D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL




--
Greg Moore
SQL Server DBA Consulting Remote and Onsite available!
Email: sql (at) greenms.com http://www.greenms.com/sqlserver.html


  #8  
Old September 2nd 08, 03:34 PM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy
Pat Flannery
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,466
Default Orion PDR slides to mid 2009



Alan Erskine wrote:
Then why can't they? Why do such problems keep happening?



You know that problem SpaceX's Falcon ran into with the engine still
developing some thrust after shutdown?
The von Braun team knew about that clean back in WW II, as it was one of
the main causes of the poor accuracy of the V-2 missile - which ended up
tumbling end-over-end due to the effect after engine shutdown, so in
what attitude it reentered the atmosphere wasn't predictable.

Pat
  #9  
Old September 2nd 08, 05:37 PM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy
Derek Lyons
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,999
Default Orion PDR slides to mid 2009

"Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" wrote:

Nowadays, people expect engineers to be able to re-solve the problems that
were already solved in the fifties and sixties without much difficulty.


People hold all manner of dammfool ignorant unfounded beliefs.


But one shouldn't also excuse away some of their mistakes either.


Certainly. But they key is, as you suggest, to differentiate between
dammfool beliefs and dammfool political decisions.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
  #10  
Old September 2nd 08, 06:54 PM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy
Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,865
Default Orion PDR slides to mid 2009

"Derek Lyons" wrote in message
...
"Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" wrote:

Nowadays, people expect engineers to be able to re-solve the problems
that
were already solved in the fifties and sixties without much difficulty.

People hold all manner of dammfool ignorant unfounded beliefs.


But one shouldn't also excuse away some of their mistakes either.


Certainly. But they key is, as you suggest, to differentiate between
dammfool beliefs and dammfool political decisions.


But that requires thinking and thinking is hard.

(ok, I'm a bit cynical today :_0



D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL




--
Greg Moore
SQL Server DBA Consulting Remote and Onsite available!
Email: sql (at) greenms.com http://www.greenms.com/sqlserver.html


 




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