Can Russia invite China to ISS?

LooseChanj wrote in
m:

On or about 18 Oct 2003 19:25:43 GMT, Jorge R. Frank
made the sensational claim that:
Or to spite China. India and China are rivals, too... just read
India's press reaction to Shenzhou 5.

Link?

It was an editorial in the Times of India on the day of launch, calling it
a "stunt" or a "joke", linked to by spacetoday.net. Oddly, I can't seem to
find the actual story from either site now, nor from Google.

There are other articles linked from spacetoday.net that make a point of
contrasting India's peaceful space program with China's military-run
program. That's to be expected, of course.

--
JRF

Reply-to address spam-proofed - to reply by E-mail,
check "Organization" (I am not assimilated) and
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"Explorer8939" wrote in message
om...
Chris Bennetts wrote in message
...

IIRC, Shenzhou's docking equipment is APAS, so that would require use of
the
US-owned PMA-2 (PMA-3 is currently unusable, and also US-owned) as a
docking location, since their aren't any suitable ports on the Russian
side.


This is actually not true. The Russian Segment Service Module zenith
port is hybrid, which is field replaceable by an APAS (meaning that
the current cone adaptor could be changed out - on orbit - into a
functional APAS.

It isn't suitable "out of the box". I read some of the overviews of the work
required to adapt Zarya's aft port to APAS, back when flying 2A.3 with the
ICM was a real possibility. The work involved wasn't easy, though it was
certainly possible if there wasn't any other option. Docking to the US
segment would be by far the easier option.

In any case, I'm sure that Russia would prefer to keep Zvezda's zenith port
free so that they can relocate DC-1 there sometime in the future if they can
find enough money for the SPP.

--Chris

Can Russia invite China to ISS?

From the chinese launch site can they even reach iSS with their available
hardware?

Chris Bennetts writes:

IIRC, Shenzhou's docking equipment is APAS, so that would require use of the
US-owned PMA-2 (PMA-3 is currently unusable, and also US-owned) as a
docking location, since their aren't any suitable ports on the Russian
side.

Is it really APAS? As of yet, no Shenzhou has had an APAS on the top
of the orbital module. At least I've not seen a picture of this.
I've only seen a picture of a Chinese space station mockup that
appeared to have APAS hardware at one end.

At any rate, if it is APAS, China could possibly convert it to HP&D
for an ISS flight. This would seem to be easier than converting an
HP&D port on ISS to APAS. This would allow docking to the Russian
side of ISS, in case the US didn't want Shenzhou docking to a PMA.

Jeff
--
Remove "no" and "spam" from email address to reply.
If it says "This is not spam!", it's surely a lie.

Can Russia invite China to ISS?

are the orbital inclinations compatible?

There are 2 questions he

1) Do the Chinese really have APAS docking systems? Yes, they do. The
Russians sold the Chinese APAS and some other systems useful for
Shenzhou missions.

2) Would it be easier for the Chinese to use Hybrid on Zhenzhou to
dock the with Service Module Zenith Port rather than convert that port
to APAS? Assuming that the Russians were in the mood the sell the
Chinese Hybrid docking adaptors, yes. But it is not clear whether the
Russians really want to release Probe and Cone (even the Hybrid
variant) to someone else at this time, it is a much more useful and
valuable system than APAS.



jeff findley wrote in message ...
Chris Bennetts writes:

IIRC, Shenzhou's docking equipment is APAS, so that would require use of the
US-owned PMA-2 (PMA-3 is currently unusable, and also US-owned) as a
docking location, since their aren't any suitable ports on the Russian
side.

Is it really APAS? As of yet, no Shenzhou has had an APAS on the top
of the orbital module. At least I've not seen a picture of this.
I've only seen a picture of a Chinese space station mockup that
appeared to have APAS hardware at one end.

At any rate, if it is APAS, China could possibly convert it to HP&D
for an ISS flight. This would seem to be easier than converting an
HP&D port on ISS to APAS. This would allow docking to the Russian
side of ISS, in case the US didn't want Shenzhou docking to a PMA.

Jeff

(Explorer8939) wrote in
om:

2) Would it be easier for the Chinese to use Hybrid on Zhenzhou to
dock the with Service Module Zenith Port rather than convert that port
to APAS? Assuming that the Russians were in the mood the sell the
Chinese Hybrid docking adaptors, yes. But it is not clear whether the
Russians really want to release Probe and Cone (even the Hybrid
variant) to someone else at this time, it is a much more useful and
valuable system than APAS.

In what ways?


--
JRF

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check "Organization" (I am not assimilated) and
think one step ahead of IBM.

On 21 Oct 2003 11:39:26 -0700, (Explorer8939)
wrote:

But it is not clear whether the
Russians really want to release Probe and Cone (even the Hybrid
variant) to someone else at this time, it is a much more useful and
valuable system than APAS.

I would think the more versatile APAS would be more valuable to the
Russians.

Brian

Jorge R. Frank a écrit dans le message :
...
Ben Sisko wrote in
:

ISS partners would demand that China first demonstrate that its
systems are reliable enough to perform safe docking. This means China
will have to do its own dockings with its own equipment a few times.

The ISS partners would be on very shaky ground if they demanded a more
rigorous testing program for Shenzhou than is currently being done with
ESA's ATV and Japan's HTV.


I don't know about HTV, but ATV is using the same russian docking mechanism
as progress at least as far as the mechanical parts go, so this is quite
validated. As for approach, the first ATV flight will carry a KURS as a
redundant ( payload ) system, in order to validate the european system.
There are also numerous redundancies and ground and crew checks in the
system.


I feel that for China to be allowed to dock on the USA side, it would
require a diplomatic decision with the USA president telling NASA to
allow China to dock, against NASA's objections.

I find this ludicrous. The president is more likely to oppose a Chinese
docking to ISS than NASA.

And there would be sound US strategic reasons to let the Chinese dock to
ISS, or even take them in as a partner. Even a one-shot docking would
allow
US experts their first good look at the inside of a Shenzhou. And if you
think the US would consent to a Shenzhou docking without being allowed
inside to inspect for hazardous materials, think again. Shenzhou is

Very true. NASA safety review boards are examining in details EVERYTHING
about ATV, even things which, IMHO, should be considered company know-how
secrets, such as navigation algorithms. I just hope this knowledge stays
well isolated from US companies.

Ben Sisko a écrit dans le message :
...

Since Shenzhou is not re-usable, what prevents China from building a few
orbital modules with the russian docking hardware and software ?


Installing Russian HW and SW on another system is not so easy, as
demionstrated by the time and modifications it takes to do exactly this for
ATV. I'm not convinced this would not entail big design change in either
Shenzou or the russian systems. More likely both. So it's a question of
funds and time.