Earth's Radio-Wave Halo

Article in Astrobiolgy Magazine - Earth's Radio-Wave Halo - by Dr.
Jill Tarter, Director of SETI Research, SETI Institute

http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules...rder=0&thold=0


Dr. Tarter talks about Earth's radio-leakage eventually diminishing to
be indistinguishable from noise and talks about SETI today and
tomorrow.

Regards, Jason H.

"Jason H." wrote in message
om...
Article in Astrobiolgy Magazine - Earth's Radio-Wave Halo - by Dr.
Jill Tarter, Director of SETI Research, SETI Institute


http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules...rder=0&thold=0


Dr. Tarter talks about Earth's radio-leakage eventually diminishing to
be indistinguishable from noise and talks about SETI today and
tomorrow.

Regards, Jason H.

I think that a radio-emitting phase is not long in emerging civilizations. That
article eluded many questions, speaking in a quite general tone. OK, but...

The leakage of radio waves by the earth continues. The sphere of space where this
signal is perceptible is like 50 light years or so.

That makes quite a lot of stars. Shouldn't we listen for an answer to our signal?

I mean it is logical to answer using the same media that the message comes with.

Using the same media we ensure that the receiver can understand it and hear it.
Since the emitter is using the media already, a radio answer can be beamed
directly to it.

Any advanced radio monitoring equipment in a radius of 50 light years has sensed
mankind's signal already. It is probably the signature of an emerging civilization
using radio-waves. I think we are nothing special.

Intrigued by this change in signal, the computer could point a good scope at that
planet. A good scope can receive the other signal:

City lights.

Our cities are visible with a good scope light years away. Monster scopes
with collecting mirrors in the kilometer range, can see quite far mind you.
We have concrete plans of building such scopes, not in the Km range but still,
this century is just beginning.

This two signals we are sending are visible 50 light years from here. And as time
passes, our signal increases by a light year radius. Yes, it weakens, but
advanced sensing machinery can perceive very far.

We sent and go on sending this two signals by chance, or maybe necessity.
Other civilizations can perceive us, and if they are older, they are already
aware that life exists in earth. The atmospheric composition and spectra
cry it aloud.

A change in the earth radio signal and light in the night side of the planet
would tell surely a long story to them. We can assume that the atmospheric
composition of the earth has told them already that life exists here. Earth is
interesting for living beings.

I think it could be very interesting to listen to the stars in our neighbourhood.

All of this, as SETI, is speculation. I have no proof that such a machine exists.
I just think it would be worthwhile to listen.

I would disagree that our signal is just noise.

jacob

"Jason H." wrote in message
om...
Article in Astrobiolgy Magazine - Earth's Radio-Wave Halo - by Dr.
Jill Tarter, Director of SETI Research, SETI Institute


http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules...rder=0&thold=0


Dr. Tarter talks about Earth's radio-leakage eventually diminishing to
be indistinguishable from noise and talks about SETI today and
tomorrow.

Regards, Jason H.

I think that a radio-emitting phase is not long in emerging civilizations. That
article eluded many questions, speaking in a quite general tone. OK, but...

The leakage of radio waves by the earth continues. The sphere of space where this
signal is perceptible is like 50 light years or so.

That makes quite a lot of stars. Shouldn't we listen for an answer to our signal?

I mean it is logical to answer using the same media that the message comes with.

Using the same media we ensure that the receiver can understand it and hear it.
Since the emitter is using the media already, a radio answer can be beamed
directly to it.

Any advanced radio monitoring equipment in a radius of 50 light years has sensed
mankind's signal already. It is probably the signature of an emerging civilization
using radio-waves. I think we are nothing special.

Intrigued by this change in signal, the computer could point a good scope at that
planet. A good scope can receive the other signal:

City lights.

Our cities are visible with a good scope light years away. Monster scopes
with collecting mirrors in the kilometer range, can see quite far mind you.
We have concrete plans of building such scopes, not in the Km range but still,
this century is just beginning.

This two signals we are sending are visible 50 light years from here. And as time
passes, our signal increases by a light year radius. Yes, it weakens, but
advanced sensing machinery can perceive very far.

We sent and go on sending this two signals by chance, or maybe necessity.
Other civilizations can perceive us, and if they are older, they are already
aware that life exists in earth. The atmospheric composition and spectra
cry it aloud.

A change in the earth radio signal and light in the night side of the planet
would tell surely a long story to them. We can assume that the atmospheric
composition of the earth has told them already that life exists here. Earth is
interesting for living beings.

I think it could be very interesting to listen to the stars in our neighbourhood.

All of this, as SETI, is speculation. I have no proof that such a machine exists.
I just think it would be worthwhile to listen.

I would disagree that our signal is just noise.

jacob

"jacob navia" wrote in message
...

"Jason H." wrote in message
om...
Article in Astrobiolgy Magazine - Earth's Radio-Wave Halo - by Dr.
Jill Tarter, Director of SETI Research, SETI Institute



http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules...rder=0&thold=0


Dr. Tarter talks about Earth's radio-leakage eventually diminishing to
be indistinguishable from noise and talks about SETI today and
tomorrow.

Regards, Jason H.

I think that a radio-emitting phase is not long in emerging civilizations.
That
article eluded many questions, speaking in a quite general tone. OK,
but...

Not logical I submit.... If a civilization gains the technology for
EM controlled transmittions then from that point forward they
can produce EM transmittions, if they wish, until the civilization
ends by catastrophy... They may find that another method for
communication over distance may be feasable when they gain a
greater knowledge base. We cannot assume that because all
we know of the rules we know, is all the rules we may someday
know....






The leakage of radio waves by the earth continues. The sphere of space
where this
signal is perceptible is like 50 light years or so.

Matter of scale... There is no reason that a EM wave
should not be detectable at the any distance from your 50
to the 15 billion ly the universe is estimated to be ( changes
as we get more information) Only humans lack of
knowledge in method to detect such imbedded and
low level waves limits our ability to observe much
farther than you state. We detect EM waves from
all points of the universe.. And a imbedded intellegent
signal may not in anyway be detectable by our technology.

Now if you meant that the intelectual signiture of earth
is only at 50 ly's ... Thats getting closer... But it would
be more like 125 ly's because the first spark gap transmitters
would still be propagating at c ( or local variant due to local
medium density) ... And would be fully detectable if the
sensitivity and isolational ability of the detector was good
enough....



That makes quite a lot of stars. Shouldn't we listen for an answer to our
signal?

Seti.... We are.....



I mean it is logical to answer using the same media that the message comes
with.

If that media is in a form that is detectable and isolatable by the
receiver's technology.... Humans are but a flea on a very big elephant...
and to assume that a civilization that say has been around for bunch longer
would not find new rules that we have yet to conceive is limiting the
search to our "baby talk" types of transmittions....

A good anlology is a group of 2 year olds communicating together
and a PhD in physics gives a lecture... The information is lost
on the receiver and the receiver is unable to communicate until the
receiver and transmitter find common rules.. In the mean time the
PhD is but background noise for the toddlers to marvel over.....



Using the same media we ensure that the receiver can understand it and
hear it.
Since the emitter is using the media already, a radio answer can be beamed
directly to it.

Any advanced radio monitoring equipment in a radius of 50 light years has
sensed
mankind's signal already. It is probably the signature of an emerging
civilization
using radio-waves. I think we are nothing special.

Intrigued by this change in signal, the computer could point a good scope
at that
planet. A good scope can receive the other signal:

City lights.

Our cities are visible with a good scope light years away. Monster scopes
with collecting mirrors in the kilometer range, can see quite far mind
you.
We have concrete plans of building such scopes, not in the Km range but
still,
this century is just beginning.

This two signals we are sending are visible 50 light years from here. And
as time
passes, our signal increases by a light year radius. Yes, it weakens, but
advanced sensing machinery can perceive very far.

We sent and go on sending this two signals by chance, or maybe necessity.
Other civilizations can perceive us, and if they are older, they are
already
aware that life exists in earth. The atmospheric composition and spectra
cry it aloud.

A change in the earth radio signal and light in the night side of the
planet
would tell surely a long story to them. We can assume that the atmospheric
composition of the earth has told them already that life exists here.
Earth is
interesting for living beings.

I think it could be very interesting to listen to the stars in our
neighbourhood.

All of this, as SETI, is speculation. I have no proof that such a machine
exists.
I just think it would be worthwhile to listen.

I would disagree that our signal is just noise.

jacob

We listen for lots of stuff... Seti is looking at a very
tiny spread where the background noise is low... This is
only because with our technology its considered that
its the spectrum we would broadcast in if we wanted
to send a signal a long way.. So we make the assumption
that any other civilization that was on our technological
scale would also broadcast and listen in that quite region..

There's a bit of rumble in the physics community on
whether gravity can support wave action and at what
velocity a gravitational wave can propagate. One side
that says that gravity waves travel at c but the base
UGC (Universal Gravitation Constant) can vary
globally instantaneously ... So an advanced cilivilsation
may have a method to communicate via the quantum nature
of the UGC and c not apply.... We would never know because
we have not found all the rules yet in our minute in the universe.
On the scale of the Universe, all our technological abilities
, all our knowledge base from all the world, came to being
in a split second of time... To assume we have all the answers
or even that we even know all the questions is arrogance...



But we also point Hubble, Aracebo and other large arrays
at lots of radio sources and if we run across a signal in
those spectra we would put more into that area.... But we are
limited by funds.... We have to pick and chose what we do
in the quest for knowledge... Just imagine what we may
have been able to do by now if the funding level on
the quest of space would have been maintained at the
rate Kennedy set for the moon programs...

"jacob navia" wrote in message
...

"Jason H." wrote in message
om...
Article in Astrobiolgy Magazine - Earth's Radio-Wave Halo - by Dr.
Jill Tarter, Director of SETI Research, SETI Institute



http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules...rder=0&thold=0


Dr. Tarter talks about Earth's radio-leakage eventually diminishing to
be indistinguishable from noise and talks about SETI today and
tomorrow.

Regards, Jason H.

I think that a radio-emitting phase is not long in emerging civilizations.
That
article eluded many questions, speaking in a quite general tone. OK,
but...

Not logical I submit.... If a civilization gains the technology for
EM controlled transmittions then from that point forward they
can produce EM transmittions, if they wish, until the civilization
ends by catastrophy... They may find that another method for
communication over distance may be feasable when they gain a
greater knowledge base. We cannot assume that because all
we know of the rules we know, is all the rules we may someday
know....






The leakage of radio waves by the earth continues. The sphere of space
where this
signal is perceptible is like 50 light years or so.

Matter of scale... There is no reason that a EM wave
should not be detectable at the any distance from your 50
to the 15 billion ly the universe is estimated to be ( changes
as we get more information) Only humans lack of
knowledge in method to detect such imbedded and
low level waves limits our ability to observe much
farther than you state. We detect EM waves from
all points of the universe.. And a imbedded intellegent
signal may not in anyway be detectable by our technology.

Now if you meant that the intelectual signiture of earth
is only at 50 ly's ... Thats getting closer... But it would
be more like 125 ly's because the first spark gap transmitters
would still be propagating at c ( or local variant due to local
medium density) ... And would be fully detectable if the
sensitivity and isolational ability of the detector was good
enough....



That makes quite a lot of stars. Shouldn't we listen for an answer to our
signal?

Seti.... We are.....



I mean it is logical to answer using the same media that the message comes
with.

If that media is in a form that is detectable and isolatable by the
receiver's technology.... Humans are but a flea on a very big elephant...
and to assume that a civilization that say has been around for bunch longer
would not find new rules that we have yet to conceive is limiting the
search to our "baby talk" types of transmittions....

A good anlology is a group of 2 year olds communicating together
and a PhD in physics gives a lecture... The information is lost
on the receiver and the receiver is unable to communicate until the
receiver and transmitter find common rules.. In the mean time the
PhD is but background noise for the toddlers to marvel over.....



Using the same media we ensure that the receiver can understand it and
hear it.
Since the emitter is using the media already, a radio answer can be beamed
directly to it.

Any advanced radio monitoring equipment in a radius of 50 light years has
sensed
mankind's signal already. It is probably the signature of an emerging
civilization
using radio-waves. I think we are nothing special.

Intrigued by this change in signal, the computer could point a good scope
at that
planet. A good scope can receive the other signal:

City lights.

Our cities are visible with a good scope light years away. Monster scopes
with collecting mirrors in the kilometer range, can see quite far mind
you.
We have concrete plans of building such scopes, not in the Km range but
still,
this century is just beginning.

This two signals we are sending are visible 50 light years from here. And
as time
passes, our signal increases by a light year radius. Yes, it weakens, but
advanced sensing machinery can perceive very far.

We sent and go on sending this two signals by chance, or maybe necessity.
Other civilizations can perceive us, and if they are older, they are
already
aware that life exists in earth. The atmospheric composition and spectra
cry it aloud.

A change in the earth radio signal and light in the night side of the
planet
would tell surely a long story to them. We can assume that the atmospheric
composition of the earth has told them already that life exists here.
Earth is
interesting for living beings.

I think it could be very interesting to listen to the stars in our
neighbourhood.

All of this, as SETI, is speculation. I have no proof that such a machine
exists.
I just think it would be worthwhile to listen.

I would disagree that our signal is just noise.

jacob

We listen for lots of stuff... Seti is looking at a very
tiny spread where the background noise is low... This is
only because with our technology its considered that
its the spectrum we would broadcast in if we wanted
to send a signal a long way.. So we make the assumption
that any other civilization that was on our technological
scale would also broadcast and listen in that quite region..

There's a bit of rumble in the physics community on
whether gravity can support wave action and at what
velocity a gravitational wave can propagate. One side
that says that gravity waves travel at c but the base
UGC (Universal Gravitation Constant) can vary
globally instantaneously ... So an advanced cilivilsation
may have a method to communicate via the quantum nature
of the UGC and c not apply.... We would never know because
we have not found all the rules yet in our minute in the universe.
On the scale of the Universe, all our technological abilities
, all our knowledge base from all the world, came to being
in a split second of time... To assume we have all the answers
or even that we even know all the questions is arrogance...



But we also point Hubble, Aracebo and other large arrays
at lots of radio sources and if we run across a signal in
those spectra we would put more into that area.... But we are
limited by funds.... We have to pick and chose what we do
in the quest for knowledge... Just imagine what we may
have been able to do by now if the funding level on
the quest of space would have been maintained at the
rate Kennedy set for the moon programs...

"Jason H." wrote in message
om...
Article in Astrobiolgy Magazine - Earth's Radio-Wave Halo - by Dr.
Jill Tarter, Director of SETI Research, SETI Institute


http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules...file=article&s
id=571&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0


Dr. Tarter talks about Earth's radio-leakage eventually diminishing to
be indistinguishable from noise and talks about SETI today and
tomorrow.

I think, although I have great respect for Dr. Tarter, that she is wrong
here! As our civilization continues to grow in size we use more and more
energy and that is something that cannot be hidden so easily.

If we "disappear" or become indistinguisable from noise, then all that means
is that the overall level of noise has increased! ... and that is something
that is detectable ... it will be more difficult, that is true, but still
detectable ... it just means: "don't look for narrowband signals from other
solar systems, but look for broadband, in addition to, or instead of ...
("in addition to" is what I'd go for) ...

Unfortuanately, at this time, seti@home is not configured to look for
broadband very well ... they do look at different FFT sizes though, but in
all the data I've processed for seti@home there is not much done at the very
small FFT Sizes (FFT lengths which have broad bin widths)... perhaps
seti@home should rethink this philosophy in the future?
Al


Regards, Jason H.

"Jason H." wrote in message
om...
Article in Astrobiolgy Magazine - Earth's Radio-Wave Halo - by Dr.
Jill Tarter, Director of SETI Research, SETI Institute


http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules...file=article&s
id=571&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0


Dr. Tarter talks about Earth's radio-leakage eventually diminishing to
be indistinguishable from noise and talks about SETI today and
tomorrow.

I think, although I have great respect for Dr. Tarter, that she is wrong
here! As our civilization continues to grow in size we use more and more
energy and that is something that cannot be hidden so easily.

If we "disappear" or become indistinguisable from noise, then all that means
is that the overall level of noise has increased! ... and that is something
that is detectable ... it will be more difficult, that is true, but still
detectable ... it just means: "don't look for narrowband signals from other
solar systems, but look for broadband, in addition to, or instead of ...
("in addition to" is what I'd go for) ...

Unfortuanately, at this time, seti@home is not configured to look for
broadband very well ... they do look at different FFT sizes though, but in
all the data I've processed for seti@home there is not much done at the very
small FFT Sizes (FFT lengths which have broad bin widths)... perhaps
seti@home should rethink this philosophy in the future?
Al


Regards, Jason H.

Alfred A. Aburto Jr. wrote:

"Jason H." wrote in message

om...

Article in Astrobiolgy Magazine - Earth's Radio-Wave Halo - by Dr.
Jill Tarter, Director of SETI Research, SETI Institute



http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules...file=article&s
id=571&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0


Dr. Tarter talks about Earth's radio-leakage eventually diminishing to
be indistinguishable from noise and talks about SETI today and
tomorrow.


I think, although I have great respect for Dr. Tarter, that she is wrong
here! As our civilization continues to grow in size we use more and more
energy and that is something that cannot be hidden so easily.

If anything we send falls off ~ 1/r^2 out there, then -- all else
remaining constant -- aperature areas on the other end would have to
grow with distance from earth. That doesn't seem plausible.

Alfred A. Aburto Jr. wrote:

"Jason H." wrote in message

om...

Article in Astrobiolgy Magazine - Earth's Radio-Wave Halo - by Dr.
Jill Tarter, Director of SETI Research, SETI Institute



http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules...file=article&s
id=571&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0


Dr. Tarter talks about Earth's radio-leakage eventually diminishing to
be indistinguishable from noise and talks about SETI today and
tomorrow.


I think, although I have great respect for Dr. Tarter, that she is wrong
here! As our civilization continues to grow in size we use more and more
energy and that is something that cannot be hidden so easily.

If anything we send falls off ~ 1/r^2 out there, then -- all else
remaining constant -- aperature areas on the other end would have to
grow with distance from earth. That doesn't seem plausible.

"JimC" wrote in message
m...


Alfred A. Aburto Jr. wrote:

"Jason H." wrote in message

om...

Article in Astrobiolgy Magazine - Earth's Radio-Wave Halo - by Dr.
Jill Tarter, Director of SETI Research, SETI Institute




http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules...file=article&s
id=571&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0


Dr. Tarter talks about Earth's radio-leakage eventually diminishing to
be indistinguishable from noise and talks about SETI today and
tomorrow.


I think, although I have great respect for Dr. Tarter, that she is wrong
here! As our civilization continues to grow in size we use more and more
energy and that is something that cannot be hidden so easily.

If anything we send falls off ~ 1/r^2 out there, then -- all else
remaining constant -- aperature areas on the other end would have to
grow with distance from earth. That doesn't seem plausible.

But it is true on our side ... aperture size continues to grow. Dr Tarter
spoke of the Allen radio telescope for example and the Square Kilometer
Array (SKA). And NASA of course is building vast networks of optical
telescopes that will be able image and obtain spectra from Terrestial like
planets (Terrestrial Planet Finder mission). No where is technology going to
stop or stand still ... it continues to improve in all areas (including
signal detection capabilities, and of course on the other side, stealth
capability such as spread spectrum and so forth). It would be foolish to
give up on narrowband ... and also foolish not to include some broadband
capability (as does seti@home, but they need to do more I think). Someday in
the far future perhaps we may be able to figure out how to use the Sun, via
gravitational lensing, to image the Universe in great detail ... who knows
where the limits are ... they are boundless I think ...

Yes, you are right, aperture size must increase otherwise (all else
constant), but I don't expect our energy use to remain constant, but
instead, I suspect it will grow rapidly as we grow in population size and as
we (hopefully) expand further out into the Solar System, and even further
than that... the noise levels we'll generate at all electromagnetic
frequencies we use, will grow and grow ... this use of energy (narrowband,
broadband, whatever) will be difficult to hide ... it will be detectable ...

One way to hide it of course would be for us to "degenerate" (maybe not a
bad idea) to a far less technical society ...
Al