A Space & astronomy forum. SpaceBanter.com

Go Back   Home » SpaceBanter.com forum » Space Science » Policy
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Where else in our solar system could humanity colonize, besides mars?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old October 9th 16, 08:44 AM posted to sci.space.policy
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 687
Default Where else in our solar system could humanity colonize, besides mars?

On Saturday, October 8, 2016 at 10:32:02 AM UTC-7, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:

On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 8:58:35 AM UTC-7, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:

Anywhere you can build (or send) a space colony, I suppose:

http://www.space.com/22228-space-sta...fographic.html


Why colonize Mars, where the low gravity will weaken the bodies of the
colonists, and may cause health problems for their children, when you can build
rotating colonies that provide a 1-G environment and be placed in whatever orbit
is most convenient?


Because we don't have to build Mars and add all the resources required
for people to live, since it's all already there.


And the necessary materials can't be harvested from the Moon and/or Asteroids?


From the Moon, unlikely. From the asteroids, perhaps, but then you
have to do the 'harvesting' and collect everything all in one place to
use it. That requires using more resources than if you could just
drive a tractor over and get it.


--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw




That still doesn't solve the problem of Mars' inadequate gravity. Venus has
gravity closer to Earth's, but then there's that hellish climate....

As for Colonies in space, they can be built to provide 1G and have the
advantage of being closer to Earth (which simplifies logistics). Also note
that most of the work involved in building them can be done robotically:

http://www.kurzweilai.net/robotic-sp...space-and-more
  #14  
Old October 9th 16, 03:23 PM posted to sci.space.policy
William Mook[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,840
Default Where else in our solar system could humanity colonize, besides mars?

On Sunday, October 9, 2016 at 8:44:56 PM UTC+13, wrote:
On Saturday, October 8, 2016 at 10:32:02 AM UTC-7, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:

On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 8:58:35 AM UTC-7, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:

Anywhere you can build (or send) a space colony, I suppose:

http://www.space.com/22228-space-sta...fographic.html


Why colonize Mars, where the low gravity will weaken the bodies of the
colonists, and may cause health problems for their children, when you can build
rotating colonies that provide a 1-G environment and be placed in whatever orbit
is most convenient?


Because we don't have to build Mars and add all the resources required
for people to live, since it's all already there.


And the necessary materials can't be harvested from the Moon and/or Asteroids?


From the Moon, unlikely. From the asteroids, perhaps, but then you
have to do the 'harvesting' and collect everything all in one place to
use it. That requires using more resources than if you could just
drive a tractor over and get it.


--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw




That still doesn't solve the problem of Mars' inadequate gravity.


Space colonies use centripetal force caused by spinning to produce gravity in zero gee. This was portrayed cinematically in the movie 2001 a space odyssey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wJQ5UrAsIY

Since the 1950s, we've had amusement park rides that produce extra-gees by spinning as well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b2wcXMkWxM

Now, people have been known to live on hills - as in San Francisco

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FisaHV2hQYc

Its easy to see that one can build a large centrifuge the size and population of San Francisco's Nob Hill.

Nob Hill is 0.81 sq km and houses 20,388 people.

A centrifuge on Mars with 507.7 meter wide strip that's 1,595.2 meters long rolled into a cylinder 507.7 meters tall and 507.7 meters wide inside of a dome that's 718.1 meters in diameter and spun once every 33.2335 seconds - moving at a speed of 48 m/sec (172.8 kph or 107.3 mph) throws everything on the inside of the strip outward with an acceleration of 9.077 m/sec2 and when combined with Mars' surface gravity of 3.711 m/sec2 produces a resultant force of 9.807 m/sec2 at an angle of 22.23 degrees - a 40.8% grade!

Back in San Francisco, the City Engineering Department reports;

Filbert between Leavenworth and Hyde (31.5% grade)
22nd between Church and Vicksburg (31.5% grade)

So, Nob Hill of Mars would have a slightly steeper street if built straight walled.

If we did the same thing on the moon's surface with a straight walled cylinder in the moon's 1.622 m/s2 acceleration we'd have to increase the outward acceleration force to 9.672 m/s2 which requires the same cylinder spin at 49.55 m/sec once every 32.192 seconds - which means a speed of 178.39 kph or 107.33 mph! This creates an apparent hillside of 9.65 degrees or 17% slope! LESS than the hills of San Francisco!

Back on Mars, to lower the steepness, all we need do is create steps. So, the cylinder equipped with ten steps 50.77 meters (166.53 feet) wide and 1,595.2 meters (5,232.26 ft (nearly a mile!)) long! Each of the ten strips that stack up to form the big cylinder are slightly off centre though the as a set they're in precise dynamic balance.

When spun up on the surface inside, the surface is a perfect switchback road that runs down the centre of each step - forming a 10 mile long switchback road with 10 switchbacks - with 200 lots per ring each 50 feet wide and 75 feet deep - on a very gently sloped switchback road.

Venus has
gravity closer to Earth's, but then there's that hellish climate....


On the surface sure, but at an altitude of 57 km - the pressure is 0.5 atmosphere and the temperature is a balmy 22 C (72 F). The atmosphere is largely clear of clouds with only an occasional sulphuric acid haze 96.5% Carbon Dioxide, 3.5% nitrogen.

Now, a 0.5 atmosphere pressure at 44% oxygen and 56% nitrogen inside a balloon masses 664.3 kg/m3.

The 96.5% CO2 and 3.5% Nitrogen atmosphere outside masses 970.3 kg/m3.

So, each cubic meter of breathable air inside a large chamber has a buoyancy of 306.0 kg/m3.

http://architizer.tumblr.com/post/11...e-project-with

So, a mile wide geodesic sphere could carry 668 million metric tons of weight - enough to build skyscrapers and carry far more than 7,000 people imagined by Fuller for Earth's atmosphere. A spot 1.016 km (3310 ft) at the base of the sphere, holds an area the size (but not the steepness) of Nob Hill - with 22,000 people! Surrounded by hillsides that grow intense agriculture.

The sunlight is 2,617 W/m2!! This is more than double high noon intensity in the deserts of Earth! Peak intensity of 1000 Watts /m2 is bright enough.. To simulate night, no light comes it. In fact, on Earth the average amount of sunlight is around 250 W/m2 over a 24 hour period. Mars spins retrograde and very slowly. So, its easy for a balloon to stay in one spot relative to the Sun, and be in sunlight all the time!

Thus, 2,367 W/m2 is available for industrial use! A sphere like Buckminster Fuller's Cloud Nine City, 1 mile in diameter (1.61 km) covered with thin film solar concentrators that focus light onto high intensity photovoltaic receivers, produce 3.75 gigawatts of useful power! Far more than 22,000 people need! Of course, a portion of it is used to produce Earth normal illumination ideally suited for vertical agriculture surrounding the village at the base of the large sphere described above. Most of the surplus is used for two things;

(1) reducing CO2 to oxygen and elemental carbon,
(2) transport

Which requires a solar pumped laser

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/sci...t-with-a-laser

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhUasBcoj-Q

Basically, CO2 surrounding the floating village is compressed and cooled to a liquid. Then it can be used in a rocket, that absorbs laser energy to eject it at 10 km/sec to blast off Venus. Landing is easy, operating by aerobraking. A 3.75 GW laser beam produces 76.5 metric tons of thrust. A 50 ton vehicle consisting of 28.6 tons liquid CO2 and 2.4 tons structure places 19.0 tons into Low Venus Orbit.

Laser Energy also reduces CO2 surrounding the village into elemental carbon and oxygen. Oxygen is used to breathe, and carbon is used to form nano-structures

http://www.nature.com/nnano/journal/....2015.277.html

self-replicating nanorobots that double in number every hour powered by sunlight. This creates utility fog.

http://www.kurzweilai.net/utility-fo...ms-are-made-of

This is how the first settlers created their first village. They arrived in Venus orbit, aerobrake into Low Venus Orbit, and deposit a 50 ton capsule filled with engineered nanoparticles nanorobot swarm, solar powered, that settle at 57 km altitude, and begin replicating. It grows from 50 tons into 660 million tons in 24 hours! The ship then aerobrakes and lands on top of the 1,610 meter (1 mile) diameter sphere, and takes an elevator to the city below. There they plant their crops and grow their cell cutlures to reap the first harvest.

A Mars Colonial Transporter adapted for this mission, puts up 650 tons into LEO. It must slow its speed around the Sun from 29.8 km/sec to 27.3 km/sec. A difference of 2.5 km/sec hyperbolic excess velocity. Since Earth's escape velocity is 11.2 km/sec, this means the ship must reach a speed of 11..5 km/sec relative to the Centre of the Earth. A difference of 3.6 km/sec from its speed on orbit. Achieving this speed at the right time and in the right direction, takes you to venus in 146 days.

This takes 398 tons of LOX/LNG propellant, leaving 253 tons structure and payload. If the 650 ton stage is broken up into a 415 ton interplanetary stage, and a 235 ton venus orbiter, the 415 ton interplanetary stage can be recovered in one year, by flying by Venus in such a way, as to bring it back to Earth for recovery and reuse. The Venus orbiter carries 200 tons of useful payload - 50 tons of which is the utility fog that takes CO2 and makes more utility fog - and 150 tons is reserved for 200 colonists on board.

http://www.vincentabry.com/en/laser-...laser-beam-613

As the number of villages grow, laser beams are used to power electric fan jet to provide high speed transit between floating platforms. Every 584 days brings another group of immigrants.

Collecting sulphuric acid from the air - H2SO4 - water can be made along with oxygen and elemental sulphur. With the CO2, methane can be formed - and the landed ships refuelled. Unfortunately, they're not capable of reaching Venus orbit without help. So, to return the Venus colonial transport to Earth, requires that it be launched with the help of laser assist rocket.

After establishment of the first village, all subsequent Venus orbiters are met by landing craft that shuttle between Venus orbit and the floating villages. The shuttles also bring LNG/LOX back to the venus orbiters, to refuel them for return to Earth, or flights to other points in the solar system..


As for Colonies in space, they can be built to provide 1G and have the
advantage of being closer to Earth (which simplifies logistics). Also note
that most of the work involved in building them can be done robotically:

http://www.kurzweilai.net/robotic-sp...space-and-more



One gravity is easy to maintain on low gravity worlds or in the near zero gravity of the asteroids by making spinning cylinders. While the surface of Venus is uninhabitable, the cloud tops are! They're quite habitable. Improved utility fogs developed by Venusian settlers will reach down into the depths of their atmosphere to the surface below. There they can mine materials that are in short supply in the cloud top cities, and bring them back to altitude.

Ultimately, self-replicating machinery that makes efficient use of sunlight and carbon dioxide on Venus, permeates the atmosphere and surface and drives the CO2 levels down by reacting the gas with surface materials to open up that surface to development - ending the era of cloud cities.


http://www.planetary.brown.edu/pdfs/2875.pdf

  #15  
Old October 10th 16, 01:34 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,018
Default Where else in our solar system could humanity colonize, besides mars?

wrote:

On Saturday, October 8, 2016 at 10:32:02 AM UTC-7, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:

On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 8:58:35 AM UTC-7, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:

Anywhere you can build (or send) a space colony, I suppose:

http://www.space.com/22228-space-sta...fographic.html


Why colonize Mars, where the low gravity will weaken the bodies of the
colonists, and may cause health problems for their children, when you can build
rotating colonies that provide a 1-G environment and be placed in whatever orbit
is most convenient?


Because we don't have to build Mars and add all the resources required
for people to live, since it's all already there.


And the necessary materials can't be harvested from the Moon and/or Asteroids?


From the Moon, unlikely. From the asteroids, perhaps, but then you
have to do the 'harvesting' and collect everything all in one place to
use it. That requires using more resources than if you could just
drive a tractor over and get it.


That still doesn't solve the problem of Mars' inadequate gravity. Venus has
gravity closer to Earth's, but then there's that hellish climate....


We don't know that the gravity is "inadequate". Venus is a
non-starter.


As for Colonies in space, they can be built to provide 1G and have the
advantage of being closer to Earth (which simplifies logistics).


Then you've got the (known) Coriolis problems (which aren't too hard
to solve). How does it "simplify logistics" to deliver to a spinning
space colony?


Also note
that most of the work involved in building them can be done robotically:

http://www.kurzweilai.net/robotic-sp...space-and-more


And what's THAT going to cost? Right now it's merely notional.


--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mars, Moon, solar system could be littered with alien artifacts [email protected] Policy 10 December 1st 11 08:41 PM
Colonize the solar system [email protected] History 1 July 25th 06 10:41 AM
NASA's Griffin: 'Humans Will Colonize the Solar System' Neil Halelamien Policy 5 September 26th 05 05:52 PM
Mesa in the background of Mars landing site coal found on Mars; CellWell1 and CellWell2 origins of the Solar System Archimedes Plutonium Astronomy Misc 14 January 10th 04 03:13 AM
coal found on Mars; CellWell1 and CellWell2 origins of the Solar System Archimedes Plutonium Astronomy Misc 5 January 8th 04 02:53 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 SpaceBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.