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...NASA's Space Solar Power Program... Let's Make America Great Again!
"BradGuth" wrote in message ... The discovery of other life could become more problematic than it's worth, unless that other life has evolved their survival intelligence in ways that we have yet to consider as valuable. The primary reason I wish life is found on Mars is because that's the only way science and religion can at last find ....common ground. As long as this two thousand year schism continues, we'll still be in the Dark Ages. It's why Complexity Science appeals to me so much. It's a combination of reductionist and holistic methods, reduced to a single view consistent with both. The way to 'solve' the problem of combining science and religion (philosophy) is straight forward. First break each down in terms of their chosen frame of reference And the tools each use to gather 'data'. Then eliminate the two which don't make sense, and combine what's left. Science: Reductionism Tools of modern science Religion: Holism Scripture There is nothing wrong with using a reductionist frame of reference. Using the part details drive fundamental laws. However, what few grasp is the essential discovery of the Chaos sciences. Which is the relationship between order and the ability to detail components. The basic relationship of Nature is.... As order increases, component behavior becomes more chaotic. Don't you see? The study of part details is only possible for the very simplest of systems, for the /least meaningful/ of all. So a reductionist frame is tossed, along with unreliable scripture. Leaving a systems or holistic approach of religion, but retaining all the wonderful tools of modern science. Complexity Science; Systems of Holistic frame Tools of modern science Only through a holistic or systems frame of reference can higher level order, with it's all important emergent properties, be understood in a scientific way. It's the only way in which we can derive the fundamental laws of the universe properly, from the most complex the universe has to offer, not the simplest. Life shows us how the physical universe works, not the other way around, that's how completely backwards and Dark Age is our science today. This allows all systems, living, physical or philosophical, to be treated with a single universal science. But it gets even better. The abstract model, the Complex Adaptive System, is a template so to speak of the ideal system structure. A CAS shows us what the /future/ of any system should aspire to. In short, a CAS supplies the best possible solution for the ...future..of any given problem....in advance...and with any discipline at all. So, Complexity Science gives us the solution to the ideal....future. It's specialty is deriving what the future...should be. Classical methods detail reality, what things are. We now can connect the two, science and philosophy, what things are and the future we desire...scientifically...and into a path towards the ideal future system state. It really is worth it to spend some time in the themes page of the first link. I'm telling you, once the idea sinks in, the universe never looks the same again. CALResCo Complexity Writings Themes http://www.calresco.org/themes.htm DYNAMICS OF COMPLEX SYSTEMS "The study of complex systems in a unified framework has become recognized in recent years as a new scientific discipline, the ultimate of interdisciplinary fields. Breaking down the barriers between physics, chemistry and biology and the so-called soft sciences of psychology, sociology, economics, and anthropology, this text explores the universal physical and mathematical principles that govern the emergence of complex systems from simple components. Dynamics of Complex Systems is the first text describing the modern unified study of complex systems." Full Online Text http://necsi.org/publications/dcs/ s ~ BG |
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...NASA's Space Solar Power Program... Let's Make America GreatAgain!
On Oct 15, 6:43*pm, "Jonathan" wrote:
"BradGuth" wrote in message ... The discovery of other life could become more problematic than it's worth, unless that other life has evolved their survival intelligence in ways that we have yet to consider as valuable. The primary reason I wish life is found on Mars is because that's the only way science and religion can at last find ....common ground. As long as this two thousand year schism continues, we'll still be in the Dark Ages. Those faith-based Dark Ages are here to stay, even if there's intelligent other life on Mars or Venus to behold. Religions will manage to directly and/or indirectly via false flags manage to get themselves and most everyone else killed, or simply kept so spiteful and ethnic orientated that fighting to our death may seem easier to accept. All it takes is a couple of faith-based bad apples and the whole damn barrel of apples goes bad. It's why Complexity Science appeals to me so much. It's a combination of reductionist and holistic methods, reduced to a single view consistent with both. The way to 'solve' *the problem of combining science and religion (philosophy) is straight forward. First break each down in terms of their chosen frame of reference And the tools each use to gather 'data'. Then eliminate the two which don't make sense, and combine what's left. Science: Reductionism Tools of modern science Religion: Holism Scripture There is nothing wrong with using a reductionist frame of reference. Using the part details drive fundamental laws. However, what few grasp is the essential discovery of the Chaos sciences. Which is the relationship between order and the ability to detail components. The basic relationship of Nature is.... As order increases, component behavior becomes more chaotic. Don't you see? The study of part details is only possible for the very simplest of systems, for the /least meaningful/ of all. So a reductionist frame is tossed, along with unreliable scripture. Leaving a systems or holistic approach of religion, but retaining all the wonderful tools of modern science. Complexity Science; Systems of Holistic frame Tools of modern science Only through a holistic or systems frame of reference can higher level order, with it's all important emergent properties, be understood in a scientific way. It's the only way in which we can derive the fundamental laws of the universe properly, from the most complex the universe has to offer, not the simplest. Life shows us how the physical universe works, not the other way around, that's how completely backwards and Dark Age is our science today. This allows all systems, living, physical or philosophical, to be treated with a single universal science. But it gets even better. The abstract model, the Complex Adaptive System, is a template so to speak of the ideal system structure. A CAS shows us what the /future/ of any system should aspire to. In short, a CAS supplies the best possible solution for the ...future..of any given problem....in advance...and with any discipline at all. So, Complexity Science gives us the solution to the ideal....future. It's specialty is deriving what the future...should be. Classical methods detail reality, what things are. We now can connect the two, science and philosophy, what things are and the future we desire...scientifically...and into a path towards the ideal future system state. It really is worth it to spend some time in the themes page of the first link. I'm telling you, once the idea sinks in, the universe never looks the same again. CALResCo Complexity Writings Themeshttp://www.calresco.org/themes.htm DYNAMICS OF COMPLEX SYSTEMS "The study of complex systems in a unified framework has become recognized in recent years as a new scientific discipline, the ultimate of interdisciplinary fields. Breaking down the barriers between physics, chemistry and biology and the so-called soft sciences of psychology, sociology, economics, and anthropology, this text explores the universal physical and mathematical principles that govern the emergence of complex systems from simple components. Dynamics of Complex Systems is the first text describing the modern unified study of complex systems." Full Online Texthttp://necsi.org/publications/dcs/ s I'm with you. However, most of everything on your wish-list depends on accomplishing a revision of recorded history in order to uncover and reflect the best available truths. Good luck with that, and remember what they (our faith-based cabal/cartel) did to a certain dark-skinned guy that was being a little too damn honest for his own good (they had him put on a stick, along with any other trouble makers), and later on Catholics merely hired mercenaries and set their holy army to exterminate hundreds of thousands of those nice Cathars that weren't paying their fair share of dues and otherwise ignoring the Pope's demands for absolute loyalty. Trust me, nothing has changed, it's just being kept more secret. Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth BG / “Guth Usenet” |
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...NASA's Space Solar Power Program... Let's Make America Great Again!
"BradGuth" wrote in message ... Those faith-based Dark Ages are here to stay, even if there's intelligent other life on Mars or Venus to behold. Religions will manage to directly and/or indirectly via false flags manage to get themselves and most everyone else killed, or simply kept so spiteful and ethnic orientated that fighting to our death may seem easier to accept. All it takes is a couple of faith-based bad apples and the whole damn barrel of apples goes bad. Ya, for the masses that get all their science from FOX and the like. But what I mean is a scientific language must be developed that both science and religion can use. So they can talk to each other in a reasonable way. Remember, I'm not talking about lay science or common religion. But at the higher levels of each. I'm with you. However, most of everything on your wish-list depends on accomplishing a revision of recorded history in order to uncover and reflect the best available truths. I think it merely takes a new scientific language. Let me try restating some 'truths' in common terms. Complexity Science; The ideal system structure, a complex adaptive system, forms from the unstable equilibrium of opposite extremes in possibility space. When the two opposites stand at a persistent phase transition between each other, intractably entangled so that one can't tell which-is-which, self organization or evolution emerges. Such as the ideal society being an equilibrium of the opposites of "The Rule of Law", and "Freedom". Such as evolution emerging from the competition of the opposites of "Mutation" and "Genetics". Such as a cloud resulting from the union of the opposite forces of condensation and evaporation..... etc etc Jesus Christ; Love is the answer! (hint, replace opposites extremes with male and female) Both fields come to the very same conclusion. They just don't know it yet. It takes a common scientific language to see, for the first time, what is common amongst all the disciplines. In science, the disciplines are so narrow, so specialized and getting more so every day. How can a, say, physicist talk to a biologist? Let alone to a religious philosopher? So how can the 'big picture' ever be found? If you've spent any time really reading the writings of the Vatican, through the Catholic Encyclopedia, I think you'd be surprised just how well developed and reasonable is their philosophy. All the simple stories and miracles and such are metaphors designed for the desperate and uneducated third world, their primary flock, that needs the comfort and guidance of a simple lesson. It's so easy for people to misuse those metaphors by taking them literally. To quote the Vatican "This is technically expressed by saying that all our knowledge of God is analogical, and that all predicates applied to God and to creatures are used analogically, not univocally. I may look at a portrait or at its living original, and say of either, with literal truth, that is a beautiful face. "And this is an example of analogical predication. Beauty is literally and truly realized both in the portrait and its living original, and retains its proper meaning as applied to either; there is sufficient likeness or analogy to justify literal predication but there is not that perfect likeness or identity between painted and living beauty which univocal predication would imply. And similarly in the case of God and creatures. What we contemplate directly is the portrait of Him painted, so to speak, by Himself on the canvas of the universe." "The same reasons that justify and recommend the use of metaphorical language in other connections justify and recommended it here, but no Theist of average intelligence ever thinks of understanding literally the metaphors he applies, or hears applied by others, to God, any more than he means to speak literally when he calls a brave man a lion, or a cunning one a fox." http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm The Vatican has embraced Darwinian evolution, and constantly claims they have no quarrel with (well) established science. They are deliberately slow to accept new science though so as to not confuse their flock with every new theory that comes along. Good luck with that, and remember what they (our faith-based cabal/cartel) did to a certain dark-skinned guy that was being a little too damn honest for his own good (they had him put on a stick, along with any other trouble makers), and later on Catholics merely hired mercenaries and set their holy army to exterminate hundreds of thousands of those nice Cathars that weren't paying their fair share of dues and otherwise ignoring the Pope's demands for absolute loyalty. Trust me, nothing has changed, it's just being kept more secret. The world is what we make it, the possibilities are endless. Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth BG / "Guth Usenet" |
#4
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...NASA's Space Solar Power Program... Let's Make America GreatAgain!
On Oct 19, 5:57*pm, "jonathan" wrote:
"BradGuth" wrote in message ... Those faith-based Dark Ages are here to stay, even if there's intelligent other life on Mars or Venus to behold. *Religions will manage to directly and/or indirectly via false flags manage to get themselves and most everyone else killed, or simply kept so spiteful and ethnic orientated that fighting to our death may seem easier to accept. All it takes is a couple of faith-based bad apples and the whole damn barrel of apples goes bad. Ya, for the masses that get all their science from FOX and the like. But what I mean is a scientific language must be developed that both science and religion can use. So they can talk to each other in a reasonable way. Remember, I'm not talking about lay science or common religion. But at the higher levels of each. I'm with you. *However, most of everything on your wish-list depends on accomplishing a revision of recorded history in order to uncover and reflect the best available truths. I think it merely takes a new scientific language. Let me try restating some 'truths' in common terms. Complexity Science; The ideal system structure, a complex adaptive system, forms from the unstable equilibrium of opposite extremes in possibility space. When the two opposites stand at a persistent phase transition between each other, intractably entangled so that one can't tell which-is-which, self organization or evolution emerges. Such as the ideal society being an equilibrium of the opposites of "The Rule of Law", and "Freedom". Such as evolution emerging from the competition of the opposites of "Mutation" and "Genetics". Such as a cloud resulting from the union of the opposite forces of condensation and evaporation..... etc etc Jesus Christ; Love is the answer! (hint, replace opposites extremes with male and female) Both fields come to the very same conclusion. They just don't know it yet. It takes a common scientific language to see, for the first time, what is common amongst all the disciplines. In science, the disciplines are so narrow, so specialized and getting more so every day. How can a, say, physicist talk to a biologist? Let alone to a religious philosopher? So how can the 'big picture' ever be found? If you've spent any time really reading the writings of the Vatican, through the Catholic Encyclopedia, I think you'd be surprised just how well developed and reasonable is their philosophy. *All the simple stories and miracles and such are metaphors designed for the desperate and uneducated third world, their primary flock, that needs the comfort and guidance of a simple lesson. It's so easy for people to misuse those metaphors by taking them literally. To quote the Vatican "This is technically expressed by saying that all our knowledge of God is analogical, and that all predicates applied to God and to creatures are used analogically, not univocally. I may look at a portrait or at its living original, and say of either, with literal truth, that is a beautiful face. "And this is an example of analogical predication. Beauty is literally and truly realized both in the portrait and its living original, and retains its proper meaning as applied to either; there is sufficient likeness or analogy to justify literal predication but there is not that perfect likeness or identity between painted and living beauty which univocal predication would imply. And similarly in the case of God and creatures. What we contemplate directly is the portrait of Him painted, so to speak, by Himself on the canvas of the universe." "The same reasons that justify and recommend the use of metaphorical language in other connections justify and recommended it here, but no Theist of average intelligence ever thinks of understanding literally the metaphors he applies, or hears applied by others, to God, any more than he means to speak literally when he calls a brave man a lion, or a cunning one a fox."http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm The Vatican has embraced Darwinian evolution, and constantly claims they have no quarrel with (well) established science. They are deliberately slow to accept new science though so as to not confuse their flock with every new theory that comes along. Good luck with that, and remember what they (our faith-based cabal/cartel) did to a certain dark-skinned guy that was being a little too damn honest for his own good (they had him put on a stick, along with any other trouble makers), and later on Catholics merely hired mercenaries and set their holy army to exterminate hundreds of thousands of those nice Cathars that weren't paying their fair share of dues and otherwise ignoring the Pope's demands for absolute loyalty. *Trust me, nothing has changed, it's just being kept more secret. The world is what we make it, the possibilities are endless. *Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth BG / "Guth Usenet" All forms of religion are anti-science, though some more tenaciously than others. The only faith-based support as to off-world sorts of space related science is if it's either too far away and/or otherwise at best inert eyecandy worthy. ~ BG |
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