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Planet near Proxima Centauri (Travel time)
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#32
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Planet near Proxima Centauri (Travel time)
On Thursday, February 23, 2017 at 11:19:19 AM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 10:04:11 -0800 (PST), wrote: Do you ever seek medical care? Do you bother to eat and drink? Why do you bother to do these things when you're going to die anyway? That's a poor argument. A better one might be, "Why do you bother doing those things when you're going to be ressurected and live forever?" :-) I don't know that it's a better argument. But it's a similar one. Yes. Basically, they both ignore the fact that humans have a built-in aversion to self-destruction else there wouldn't be any humans. In this forum, I challenge those who don't believe in AGW because they are factually wrong and making pseudoscientific claims in a science forum. It has nothing to do with the survival of our species, and everything to do with the problems created by the science denialism and the inability to use reason and critical thinking. So it's not "irrelevant" anymore? :-) It is entirely irrelevant to the original topic. But Gary, and now you, have shifted to something completely different, which is what I responded to. I don't think it is different. If one believes that the human race is slated for extinction, why worry about AGW? Is it because it may affect you personally before you "shrug off this mortal coil"? I get you: You believe in Truth at any cost. So why do you believe in Truth when you're just going to die anyway and the human race is bound to become extinct? Inquiring minds really do want to know. I don't know what you mean by "Truth". Things as they were, and are, and will be, to the best of our knowledge, anyway :-) But I fail to understand why the inevitability of my personal death and of the extinction of the human species in any way alters the meaning I create for my own life while I am living it. Have you ever experienced existential angst? I fail to understand the reasoning that our lives only have meaning if we are somehow individually immortal. I can certainly understand the pride in the human race as expressed by Heinlein, particularly in "Starship Troopers." But you don't seem to even have that. That's why I'm wondering. What "meaning" do you create? What keeps you from experiencing existential angst? |
#33
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Planet near Proxima Centauri (Travel time)
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Planet near Proxima Centauri (Travel time)
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#35
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Planet near Proxima Centauri (Travel time)
On Thursday, February 23, 2017 at 5:15:37 PM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 12:08:54 -0800 (PST), wrote: Yes. Basically, they both ignore the fact that humans have a built-in aversion to self-destruction else there wouldn't be any humans. On an individual level, yes. As a species? Not apparent. That makes no sense to me. If we had no such aversion many would perish from suicide and most would perish from neglect, leaving no one. There is not a single species that behaves that way. It is entirely irrelevant to the original topic. But Gary, and now you, have shifted to something completely different, which is what I responded to. I don't think it is different. If one believes that the human race is slated for extinction, why worry about AGW? Is it because it may affect you personally before you "shrug off this mortal coil"? Same question. If you believe you're going to die, why worry about anything? Ezactly. But we do worry: to prevent immediate harm, to prevent harm to those we love, to prevent harm to the race. But I fail to understand why the inevitability of my personal death and of the extinction of the human species in any way alters the meaning I create for my own life while I am living it. Have you ever experienced existential angst? No. That's a good thing, I guess. I fail to understand the reasoning that our lives only have meaning if we are somehow individually immortal. I can certainly understand the pride in the human race as expressed by Heinlein, particularly in "Starship Troopers." But you don't seem to even have that. That's why I'm wondering. What "meaning" do you create? What keeps you from experiencing existential angst? Why would I have pride in my species? That makes no sense to me. I can only take pride in things of my own making. I create my own meaning in terms of my experiences, my friends and family, the knowledge I discover, the knowledge I pass on. I can't understand how a person would not find such things give meaning to their lives. I believe they _all_ do. Indeed, if I required some sort of afterlife or some kind of external judgment, then I'd consider things meaningless. In most religions, what one does in this life affects what kind of afterlife he'll have. That certainly would make "things" meaningful to one rather than meaningless. OTOH, religions that avow predestination would seem to fit your prescription. |
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Planet near Proxima Centauri (Travel time)
On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 17:15:36 -0700, Chris L Peterson
wrote: Why would I have pride in my species? Perhaps because of evolution? A species whose individuals feel proud might survive better than a species whose individuals do not feel proud. Perhaps this is the reasons why our species survived while the neandertals became extinct? Of course pride can go too far. It needs moderation to not become a threat ("pride goes before fall" the parable says). Maybe mankind today is too proud. Maybe that's why we today have a dominant religion which teaches that humans were created a an image of the creator (this is taught by Judaism, Christianity and Islam). Maybe that's why so many people falsely feel that AGW is not a threat. |
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Planet near Proxima Centauri (Travel time)
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#38
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Planet near Proxima Centauri (Travel time)
On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 13:19:19 +0100, Paul Schlyter
wrote: On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 17:15:36 -0700, Chris L Peterson wrote: Why would I have pride in my species? Perhaps because of evolution? A species whose individuals feel proud might survive better than a species whose individuals do not feel proud. Perhaps this is the reasons why our species survived while the neandertals became extinct? There's nothing to suggest that humans take any notice of "species". Unlike other animals, we at least recognize the concept, but that's all. We protect our own genes, individually and through our families, and to a lesser extend through our tribe. The history of humanity is the story of genocide- we spend vast resources killing or subjugating other humans who don't share our genes (or who we believe don't share our genes). This continues today, right up to the U.S. President and those who elected him. There is no pride in species. There is no natural inclination to value humans in general. |
#39
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Planet near Proxima Centauri (Travel time)
On Friday, February 24, 2017 at 4:08:26 AM UTC-8, wrote:
In most religions, what one does in this life affects what kind of afterlife he'll have. That certainly would make "things" meaningful to one rather than meaningless. OTOH, religions that avow predestination would seem to fit your prescription. What one does indeed !, spirituality is nothing more than the ability to be inspired and be inspiring and those who pass through existence and the transition from childhood to adulthood should gain the appreciation of the connection between the individual and the Universal in physical terms, the connection between an individual human and God in religious terms or where the temporal is encompassed in the Eternal is brief glimpses in spiritual terms. "Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." from a letter of John Many mistake 'convictions for faith and that is a joyless affair where they meet others like the empiricists who are equally driven by joyless convictions and the racket they produce but it is not so for those who come to realize what Christ and Christianity represents. It is most crucial in physical terms and especially in astronomy where the experience of large scale structures and motions are experienced at a human level. The mindnumbing pronouncements of the empiricists and many like them as regards the fate of humanity or the planet are meaningless rubbish that tries to substitute for their efforts to bury their inspirational faculties under layers and layers of inherited convictions received through the education system. Astronomy is perhaps one of the most powerful experiences and a reminder that the individual not only acknowledges the Universal but participates in the great cycles that make existence possible so people can leave 'afterlife' aside and enjoy what they have in any given day. |
#40
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Planet near Proxima Centauri (Travel time)
On Friday, February 24, 2017 at 7:57:44 AM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 04:08:21 -0800 (PST), wrote: Yes. Basically, they both ignore the fact that humans have a built-in aversion to self-destruction else there wouldn't be any humans. On an individual level, yes. As a species? Not apparent. That makes no sense to me. If we had no such aversion many would perish from suicide and most would perish from neglect, leaving no one. There is not a single species that behaves that way. That makes no sense. Why would an inbuilt lack of concern for our species result in suicide or neglect? No species shows a concern for its own species. We are arguably the only species that even recognizes the concept. Most animals exhibit behavior directed towards protecting and propagating their individual genes. I guess I was misunderstanding you. I was saying that there would be no species if individuals had no aversion to self-destruction. Some have extended that to small family groups. Beyond that, none Quite a few extend that to patriotism. - including humans- consider their entire species. A few do that, too. Philosophers in particular. I don't think it is different. If one believes that the human race is slated for extinction, why worry about AGW? Is it because it may affect you personally before you "shrug off this mortal coil"? Same question. If you believe you're going to die, why worry about anything? Ezactly. But we do worry: to prevent immediate harm, to prevent harm to those we love, to prevent harm to the race. Few are interested in preventing harm to the race. Just look at the last U.S. election! That may be _your_ opinion, but others may bellieve they are preserving the race by voting the way they did. I can't speak for you, but I am engaged in life precisely because there is no afterlife. That's what gives it meaning to me. Eat, drink and be merry? Indeed, if I required some sort of afterlife or some kind of external judgment, then I'd consider things meaningless. In most religions, what one does in this life affects what kind of afterlife he'll have. That certainly would make "things" meaningful to one rather than meaningless. By deferring judgment, they hinder our ability to find real meaning in life. Immediate reward and punishment is the way we raise children, but there were some things I did as a youth that I was never punished for. I now have no desire to do those things. I believe that deferred judgment allows us to find our own way and to become who we truly are rather than be carbon copies of what society wants us to be. Society _does_ judge us in basic matters but not in a wide variety of experiences. |
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