A Return to the Moon by the Apollo 11 50th Anniversary.

"Jeff Findley" wrote in message
...

In article 1629bbcc-0ad8-447f-8431-cbf1eef341c9
, says...

On Jan 8, 12:01 pm, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Bobbert, how things appear to YOU (not NASA) is frequently at odds
with the reality everyone else gets.

Unfortunately, NASA is not just engineers -- good, bad, and or the
ugly. Remember Feynman with his whisky-free glass of ice and some O-
ring? O o... anyway... engineers advise, management decides, and
acting as president Reagan needs a backdrop for his prime time speech.

True, but Richard Feynman was an extremely smart guy. It's a bit shades
of Dr. Sheldon Cooper (a main character in The Big Bang Theory, a
current US TV Show), but as a Nobel Prize winning theoretical physicist,
Feynman understood *a lot* about how the world works. Mere "rocket
science" was not beyond his understanding. ;-)


BTW, I should note what got me hooked on The Big Bang Theory was the
whiteboards in the first episode I watched.

(The episode explained why the elevator is out of commission after a small
accident with rocket fuel).

But in the background on the whiteboards were references to A-Stoff and
C-Stoff and the like.

Sometimes it's fun just to see what geeky details are in the background
(like on the bookshelves.)


Jeff

--
Greg D. Moore http://greenmountainsoftware.wordpress.com/
CEO QuiCR: Quick, Crowdsourced Responses. http://www.quicr.net

On Jan 8, 10:38*pm, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Mahipal wrote:
On Jan 8, 3:09 pm, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article a4c9a329-cd8a-47a7-b563-
, says....

My point about NASA was more about how the advice -- good, bad, or
ugly -- gets changed, mis-directed, manipulated as needed, when it
progresses up the politically dominated pyramid scheme chain of The
Boss's commands.

True.

When working in a "shoot the messenger" environment, I've seen how
messages are sanitized as they move up the management chain. By the
time such a message gets to a person who can actually make a decision,
they often don't have all the facts to make a properly informed
decision.

There's an acknowledged "shoot the messenger" environment?

While that's not normally the case where I work, I ceased worrying
about that a while back. *I'm at the point where there's very little
that shooting me will accomplish other than convince me to go ahead
and retire. *People know this and would rather not pull that
trigger...

If they shot either you or me, our posts would not be.

--
"I'll learn to work the saxophone.
*I'll play just what I feel.
*Drink Scotch whisky all night long
*And die behind the wheel."
* * * * * * * * * -- "Deacon Blues", Steely Dan

Such a superb song! Thanks Fred for bringing it up.

"I cried when I wrote this song
Sue me if I play too long
This brother is free
I'll be what I want to be"

and I'm never going back to my old school...
especially not before they shoot us first...

"Well I did not think the girl
Could be so cruel
And I'm never going back
To my old school"

In article 6be7262d-600d-4790-a9fd-aedd094469c3
@u19g2000yqj.googlegroups.com, says...

On Jan 8, 3:09*pm, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article a4c9a329-cd8a-47a7-b563-
, says...



My point about NASA was more about how the advice -- good, bad, or
ugly -- gets changed, mis-directed, manipulated as needed, when it
progresses up the politically dominated pyramid scheme chain of The
Boss's commands.

True.

When working in a "shoot the messenger" environment, I've seen how
messages are sanitized as they move up the management chain. *By the
time such a message gets to a person who can actually make a decision,
they often don't have all the facts to make a properly informed
decision.

There's an acknowledged "shoot the messenger" environment?

Don't know for sure. But I've seen it elsewhere.

Then there is the problem with "dumbing down" a message as it moves
up
the management chain on the assumption that upper management either
won't understand (or doesn't care about) the gory details. *It's always
refreshing working in an environment where managers actually understand
the details.

Via competent, or not, managers, a message manipulated is an evil in
disguise. I'm very simple that way... a fault I have to learn to hide.

Only if you want to move up into management (which I'll never do). Or,
the boss you directly report to doesn't like you to be open and brutally
honest about everything. I'm happy my current boss doesn't mind I don't
have any "filters" on what I tell him. I'm an engineer, not a manger,
dammit...

I've also dealt with politics in the form of "the boss' pet
project".
:-P

I forgot to add that the "1.5 launch architecture" was the biggest bit
of "pet project" b.s. I've seen come out of NASA in a long time. Ares
I, in particular, was hideous. There was *no* reason not to use EELV's
to launch Orion, other than Ares I was *the* "pet project" of Griffin.
Nothing like ****ing away billions on a failed design that obviously
sucked rocks from the very beginning, just because "the boss" thought it
was a good idea. :-P

I do regularly watch the TBBT, since a friend talked me into it.
Fun
show, but not as funny as it advertises itself to be. Marketing hype,
and all that. The fake laugh tracks does not help nor impress even my
kids. Still, QM QED Feynman way smarter than any Nobel Prize
_demanding_ cartoon of a character Dr. Sheldon Cooper -- my Actor
indifferent statement. The comparison of the two should not even be
possible, or allowed, iykwim. Entertainment is not Physics. Or, vice
versa.

I stuck a smiley face on the end of my original response, so it's all
good. * *;-)

I saw the smiley. I've resolved to neither use them nor read them. The
message should speak for itself. I'll deal with the ramifications.

Fair enough.

Jeff
--
"the perennial claim that hypersonic airbreathing propulsion would
magically make space launch cheaper is nonsense -- LOX is much cheaper
than advanced airbreathing engines, and so are the tanks to put it in
and the extra thrust to carry it." - Henry Spencer

On Jan 8, 10:08*pm, "Greg \(Strider\) Moore"
wrote:
"Jeff Findley" *wrote in message

...







In article 1629bbcc-0ad8-447f-8431-cbf1eef341c9
, says...

On Jan 8, 12:01 pm, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Bobbert, how things appear to YOU (not NASA) is frequently at odds
with the reality everyone else gets.

Unfortunately, NASA is not just engineers -- good, bad, and or the
ugly. Remember Feynman with his whisky-free glass of ice and some O-
ring? O o... anyway... engineers advise, management decides, and
acting as president Reagan needs a backdrop for his prime time speech.

True, but Richard Feynman was an extremely smart guy. *It's a bit shades
of Dr. Sheldon Cooper (a main character in The Big Bang Theory, a
current US TV Show), but as a Nobel Prize winning theoretical physicist,
Feynman understood *a lot* about how the world works. *Mere "rocket
science" was not beyond his understanding. *;-)

BTW, I should note what got me hooked on The Big Bang Theory was the
whiteboards in the first episode I watched.

(The episode explained why the elevator is out of commission after a small
accident with rocket fuel).

But in the background on the whiteboards were references to A-Stoff and
C-Stoff and the like.

Sometimes it's fun just to see what geeky details are in the background
(like on the bookshelves.)

Jeff

--
Greg D. Moore * * * * * * * * *http://greenmountainsoftware.wordpress.com/
CEO QuiCR: Quick, Crowdsourced Responses.http://www.quicr.net

theres a show thats ending is a page of small text. we have a 17 year
old who pauses the tivo to read it, every episode has different message

On Jan 9, 8:54*am, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article 6be7262d-600d-4790-a9fd-aedd094469c3
@u19g2000yqj.googlegroups.com, says...

On Jan 8, 3:09*pm, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article a4c9a329-cd8a-47a7-b563-
, says....

My point about NASA was more about how the advice -- good, bad, or
ugly -- gets changed, mis-directed, manipulated as needed, when it
progresses up the politically dominated pyramid scheme chain of The
Boss's commands.

True.

When working in a "shoot the messenger" environment, I've seen how
messages are sanitized as they move up the management chain. *By the
time such a message gets to a person who can actually make a decision,
they often don't have all the facts to make a properly informed
decision.

There's an acknowledged "shoot the messenger" environment?

Don't know for sure. *But I've seen it elsewhere.

The "shoot the messenger" environment surely exists, but nobody's
about to, or brave enough to, acknowledge it. Every minute when the
Mass Media refuses to address many taboo topics, another messenger
slowly dies.

Then there is the problem with "dumbing down" a message as it moves
up
the management chain on the assumption that upper management either
won't understand (or doesn't care about) the gory details. *It's always
refreshing working in an environment where managers actually understand
the details.

Via competent, or not, managers, a message manipulated is an evil in
disguise. I'm very simple that way... a fault I have to learn to hide.

Only if you want to move up into management (which I'll never do). *Or,
the boss you directly report to doesn't like you to be open and brutally
honest about everything. *I'm happy my current boss doesn't mind I don't
have any "filters" on what I tell him. *I'm an engineer, not a manger,
dammit...

I too am a (Mechanical) Engineer by education. Worked on GN&C systems
for LEO satellites until the industry down-sized by monthly mergers,
early 1990s. I opted out of aerospace and ended up in ground based
imaging for Open Road Technology. Then I got old, due to the aging
thing. Like many in my age group, we got walked out, by management,
the corporate doors after many years of service. Still wonder when we
became suddenly incompetent at the jobs we were recognized for by
awards.

Yet no messenger is allowed to state age discrimination happens.

Actually, so, my personal USA career path has conspired to leave me
presently between jobs. Sitting here, surfing, awaiting my background
check to be cashed... err... clear. They say my skills are acceptable,
but apparently my background information is sourced from everyone on
Earth but just not me. It's like Han Solo, after being tortured, "...
they didn't even ask me a question?!"

I've also dealt with politics in the form of "the boss' pet
project".
:-P

I forgot to add that the "1.5 launch architecture" was the biggest bit
of "pet project" b.s. I've seen come out of NASA in a long time. *Ares
I, in particular, was hideous. *There was *no* reason not to use EELV's
to launch Orion, other than Ares I was *the* "pet project" of Griffin.
Nothing like ****ing away billions on a failed design that obviously
sucked rocks from the very beginning, just because "the boss" thought it
was a good idea. *:-P

Sounds like the actual hidden reality behind all the fluffy right
stuff.

I do regularly watch the TBBT, since a friend talked me into it.
Fun
show, but not as funny as it advertises itself to be. Marketing hype,
and all that. The fake laugh tracks does not help nor impress even my
kids. Still, QM QED Feynman way smarter than any Nobel Prize
_demanding_ cartoon of a character Dr. Sheldon Cooper -- my Actor
indifferent statement. The comparison of the two should not even be
possible, or allowed, iykwim. Entertainment is not Physics. Or, vice
versa.

I stuck a smiley face on the end of my original response, so it's all
good. * *;-)

I saw the smiley. I've resolved to neither use them nor read them. The
message should speak for itself. *I'll deal with the ramifications.

Fair enough.

Over the years of Usenet interaction, and plain writing, I learned
that smileys were a crutch for poor penmanship, especially, for me
personally. Also, mostly a lot of abusive posters tend to use them to
mask their insults and bigotry. If you want to be funny or sad, rude
or suave, just do it, don't hang a silly smiley as if readers are
meaning challenged. Well, that's from my experience and is no advice
to others on how to construct their writings. Author knows best, in
the end.

Jeff
--
"the perennial claim that hypersonic airbreathing propulsion would
magically make space launch cheaper is nonsense -- LOX is much cheaper
than advanced airbreathing engines, and so are the tanks to put it in
and the extra thrust to carry it." - Henry Spencer

Enjo(y)... Cheers!
--
Mahipal, pronounced "My Pal" or "Maple" leads to... Maple Loops.

http://mahipal7638.wordpress.com/meforce/
"If the line between science fiction and science fact doesn't drive
you crazy, then you're not tr(y)ing!"

On Jan 9, 1:06*pm, Mahipal wrote:
On Jan 9, 8:54*am, Jeff Findley wrote:









In article 6be7262d-600d-4790-a9fd-aedd094469c3
@u19g2000yqj.googlegroups.com, says...

On Jan 8, 3:09*pm, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article a4c9a329-cd8a-47a7-b563-
, says...

My point about NASA was more about how the advice -- good, bad, or
ugly -- gets changed, mis-directed, manipulated as needed, when it
progresses up the politically dominated pyramid scheme chain of The
Boss's commands.

True.

When working in a "shoot the messenger" environment, I've seen how
messages are sanitized as they move up the management chain. *By the
time such a message gets to a person who can actually make a decision,
they often don't have all the facts to make a properly informed
decision.

There's an acknowledged "shoot the messenger" environment?

Don't know for sure. *But I've seen it elsewhere.

The "shoot the messenger" environment surely exists, but nobody's
about to, or brave enough to, acknowledge it. Every minute when the
Mass Media refuses to address many taboo topics, another messenger
slowly dies.

Then there is the problem with "dumbing down" a message as it moves
up
the management chain on the assumption that upper management either
won't understand (or doesn't care about) the gory details. *It's always
refreshing working in an environment where managers actually understand
the details.

Via competent, or not, managers, a message manipulated is an evil in
disguise. I'm very simple that way... a fault I have to learn to hide..

Only if you want to move up into management (which I'll never do). *Or,
the boss you directly report to doesn't like you to be open and brutally
honest about everything. *I'm happy my current boss doesn't mind I don't
have any "filters" on what I tell him. *I'm an engineer, not a manger,
dammit...

I too am a (Mechanical) Engineer by education. Worked on GN&C systems
for LEO satellites until the industry down-sized by monthly mergers,
early 1990s. I opted out of aerospace and ended up in ground based
imaging for Open Road Technology. Then I got old, due to the aging
thing. Like many in my age group, we got walked out, by management,
the corporate doors after many years of service. *Still wonder when we
became suddenly incompetent at the jobs we were recognized for by
awards.

Yet no messenger is allowed to state age discrimination happens.

Actually, so, my personal USA career path has conspired to leave me
presently between jobs. Sitting here, surfing, awaiting my background
check to be cashed... err... clear. They say my skills are acceptable,
but apparently my background information is sourced from everyone on
Earth but just not me. It's like Han Solo, after being tortured, "...
they didn't even ask me a question?!"

I've also dealt with politics in the form of "the boss' pet
project".
:-P

I forgot to add that the "1.5 launch architecture" was the biggest bit
of "pet project" b.s. I've seen come out of NASA in a long time. *Ares
I, in particular, was hideous. *There was *no* reason not to use EELV's
to launch Orion, other than Ares I was *the* "pet project" of Griffin.
Nothing like ****ing away billions on a failed design that obviously
sucked rocks from the very beginning, just because "the boss" thought it
was a good idea. *:-P

Sounds like the actual hidden reality behind all the fluffy right
stuff.









I do regularly watch the TBBT, since a friend talked me into it.
Fun
show, but not as funny as it advertises itself to be. Marketing hype,
and all that. The fake laugh tracks does not help nor impress even my
kids. Still, QM QED Feynman way smarter than any Nobel Prize
_demanding_ cartoon of a character Dr. Sheldon Cooper -- my Actor
indifferent statement. The comparison of the two should not even be
possible, or allowed, iykwim. Entertainment is not Physics. Or, vice
versa.

I stuck a smiley face on the end of my original response, so it's all
good. * *;-)

I saw the smiley. I've resolved to neither use them nor read them. The
message should speak for itself. *I'll deal with the ramifications.

Fair enough.

Over the years of Usenet interaction, and plain writing, I learned
that smileys were a crutch for poor penmanship, especially, for me
personally. Also, mostly a lot of abusive posters tend to use them to
mask their insults and bigotry. If you want to be funny or sad, rude
or suave, just do it, don't hang a silly smiley as if readers are
meaning challenged. Well, that's from my experience and is no advice
to others on how to construct their writings. Author knows best, in
the end.

Jeff
--
"the perennial claim that hypersonic airbreathing propulsion would
magically make space launch cheaper is nonsense -- LOX is much cheaper
than advanced airbreathing engines, and so are the tanks to put it in
and the extra thrust to carry it." - Henry Spencer

Enjo(y)... Cheers!
--
Mahipal, pronounced "My Pal" or "Maple" leads to... Maple Loops.

http://mahipal7638.wordpress.com/meforce/
"If the line between science fiction and science fact doesn't drive
you crazy, then you're not tr(y)ing!"

GOP Mafia NASA stole so much money that it saw to it that going back
to the moon is impossible. China will copy the great Saturn V. Their
to smart to copy the shuttles. They won't copy those $25,000,000
TOILETS. They use depends at ten cents. They have a self heating
wok,and chop sticks with barbs. They are best of humankind for deep
space. They are light,and have heavy lid eyes.. TreBert

On Wednesday, January 9, 2013 12:51:08 PM UTC-8, G=EMC^2 wrote:

....They are best of humankind for deep

space. They are light,and have heavy lid eyes.. TreBert

Those heavy eyelids really give them a big advantage, is that about it?

On Jan 9, 12:51*pm, "G=EMC^2" wrote:
On Jan 9, 1:06*pm, Mahipal wrote:









On Jan 9, 8:54*am, Jeff Findley wrote:

In article 6be7262d-600d-4790-a9fd-aedd094469c3
@u19g2000yqj.googlegroups.com, says...

On Jan 8, 3:09*pm, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article a4c9a329-cd8a-47a7-b563-
, says...

My point about NASA was more about how the advice -- good, bad, or
ugly -- gets changed, mis-directed, manipulated as needed, when it
progresses up the politically dominated pyramid scheme chain of The
Boss's commands.

True.

When working in a "shoot the messenger" environment, I've seen how
messages are sanitized as they move up the management chain. *By the
time such a message gets to a person who can actually make a decision,
they often don't have all the facts to make a properly informed
decision.

There's an acknowledged "shoot the messenger" environment?

Don't know for sure. *But I've seen it elsewhere.

The "shoot the messenger" environment surely exists, but nobody's
about to, or brave enough to, acknowledge it. Every minute when the
Mass Media refuses to address many taboo topics, another messenger
slowly dies.

Then there is the problem with "dumbing down" a message as it moves
up
the management chain on the assumption that upper management either
won't understand (or doesn't care about) the gory details. *It's always
refreshing working in an environment where managers actually understand
the details.

Via competent, or not, managers, a message manipulated is an evil in
disguise. I'm very simple that way... a fault I have to learn to hide.

Only if you want to move up into management (which I'll never do). *Or,
the boss you directly report to doesn't like you to be open and brutally
honest about everything. *I'm happy my current boss doesn't mind I don't
have any "filters" on what I tell him. *I'm an engineer, not a manger,
dammit...

I too am a (Mechanical) Engineer by education. Worked on GN&C systems
for LEO satellites until the industry down-sized by monthly mergers,
early 1990s. I opted out of aerospace and ended up in ground based
imaging for Open Road Technology. Then I got old, due to the aging
thing. Like many in my age group, we got walked out, by management,
the corporate doors after many years of service. *Still wonder when we
became suddenly incompetent at the jobs we were recognized for by
awards.

Yet no messenger is allowed to state age discrimination happens.

Actually, so, my personal USA career path has conspired to leave me
presently between jobs. Sitting here, surfing, awaiting my background
check to be cashed... err... clear. They say my skills are acceptable,
but apparently my background information is sourced from everyone on
Earth but just not me. It's like Han Solo, after being tortured, "...
they didn't even ask me a question?!"

I've also dealt with politics in the form of "the boss' pet
project".
:-P

I forgot to add that the "1.5 launch architecture" was the biggest bit
of "pet project" b.s. I've seen come out of NASA in a long time. *Ares
I, in particular, was hideous. *There was *no* reason not to use EELV's
to launch Orion, other than Ares I was *the* "pet project" of Griffin..
Nothing like ****ing away billions on a failed design that obviously
sucked rocks from the very beginning, just because "the boss" thought it
was a good idea. *:-P

Sounds like the actual hidden reality behind all the fluffy right
stuff.

I do regularly watch the TBBT, since a friend talked me into it..
Fun
show, but not as funny as it advertises itself to be. Marketing hype,
and all that. The fake laugh tracks does not help nor impress even my
kids. Still, QM QED Feynman way smarter than any Nobel Prize
_demanding_ cartoon of a character Dr. Sheldon Cooper -- my Actor
indifferent statement. The comparison of the two should not even be
possible, or allowed, iykwim. Entertainment is not Physics. Or, vice
versa.

I stuck a smiley face on the end of my original response, so it's all
good. * *;-)

I saw the smiley. I've resolved to neither use them nor read them. The
message should speak for itself. *I'll deal with the ramifications.

Fair enough.

Over the years of Usenet interaction, and plain writing, I learned
that smileys were a crutch for poor penmanship, especially, for me
personally. Also, mostly a lot of abusive posters tend to use them to
mask their insults and bigotry. If you want to be funny or sad, rude
or suave, just do it, don't hang a silly smiley as if readers are
meaning challenged. Well, that's from my experience and is no advice
to others on how to construct their writings. Author knows best, in
the end.

Jeff
--
"the perennial claim that hypersonic airbreathing propulsion would
magically make space launch cheaper is nonsense -- LOX is much cheaper
than advanced airbreathing engines, and so are the tanks to put it in
and the extra thrust to carry it." - Henry Spencer

Enjo(y)... Cheers!
--
Mahipal, pronounced "My Pal" or "Maple" leads to... Maple Loops.

http://mahipal7638.wordpress.com/meforce/
"If the line between science fiction and science fact doesn't drive
you crazy, then you're not tr(y)ing!"

GOP Mafia NASA stole so much money that it saw to it that going back
to themoonis impossible. *China will copy the great Saturn V. Their
to smart to copy the shuttles. They won't copy those $25,000,000
TOILETS. They use depends at ten cents. They have a self heating
wok,and chop sticks with barbs. They are best of humankind for deep
space. They are light,and have heavy lid eyes.. *TreBert

Indeed, the oligarch mafia has been in charge since prior to WW2, and
even quite possibly prior to WW1, but then you probably can't accept
that we've been so extensively dumbfounded and snookered by those of
our own kind, and for so long.

China will also have to use something a whole lot better than Kodak
film when they get to walking on our physically dark and naked moon
that's so extremely contrasty to boot, because even advanced CCDs or
any other form of digital camera equipment as having more than
sufficient dynamic range but without auxiliary cooling simply can't
deal with such extreme temperature or the surrounding radiation
without those images picking up too much IR saturation plus always
recording some of those local X-ray and gamma hits.

Those unavoidable UV created secondary/recoil photons also need to be
addressed, as either optically filtered out, PhotoShop removed or
simply allowed to be honestly recorded so that local minerals and raw
elements of that naked surface can be scientifically identified, in
addition to their gamma spectrometry readings which our Apollo era had
no such apparent capability of ever doing.

Of course the considerable bluish planetshine along with the extremely
vibrant and nearby planet Venus should be downright impossible to
exclude those spectacular items from numerous frames of view(FOV)
including the physically dark terrain of our naked moon, as so easily
photographed from lunar orbit or from its naked surface. Unlike JAXA
and NASA, as having to intentionally color-desaturate the moon
whenever framed within each of their composite color images (and by
the way, it seems we still have published proof of that).

back to the original topic, the first manned flight of SLS is now
scheduled for 2021, and that will be certain to slip.

On Jan 17, 9:57*am, Fred J. McCall wrote:
bob haller wrote:
back to the original topic, the first manned flight of SLS is now
scheduled for 2021, and that will be certain to slip.

I guarantee it will slip. *They've made the capsule an international
development and we all know how well that works out....

--

amazing both fred and myself agree on something.........