pioneer 10 acceleration

Jonathan Silverlight wrote in message ...
In message , Nodem Info.
Sys. writes
Craig Markwardt wrote in message
...
**SNIP**
Also unlikely. An extra concentration of (dark) matter around the sun
should have been detectable in the motions of the planets, but has not
been. This is discussed in the Anderson et al (2001) paper.

The most mundane explanation is, as mentioned already, improper
modeling of the spacecraft radiative properties.

CM

There are three totally different space craft designs, all showing the
same effect, in the same direction, at the same magnitude. This can't
be a radiative effect and be *that* consistant. Come on!

One problem with that argument is that the later and much more
comprehensive paper by Anderson et al.
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/0104064 notes that the effect for
Ulysses is highly correlated with solar radiation pressure, and the
effect for Galileo is highly inconsistent, probably due to gas leaks.
One of the tasks of the Cassini probe was to act as a platform for this
sort of acceleration measurement (to measure gravity waves and
relativistic effects) and Cassini shows no anomaly.

I've had time to study the Cassini measurements and yes, there is no
anomaly. However, the reason for this is the way the measurement
methos differs from the other probes. The Cassini time-delay
measurement should show no real change in the velocity, which is
expected and fully consistent with my result.

What my result refers to is an apparent geometry feature of space-time
which only effects measurements made via Doppler ranging. This
results in an apparent acceleration towards the observer, and does not
represent a real change in the velocity of the probe.

[REF: NKS 2004 proceedings, Alastair Hewitt, "A Cosmological Model
Utilizing Causal-temporal Mobile Automaton", Materials 2]
http://www.wolframscience.com/confer.../ahewitt-2.pdf

As for the other probes, yes these could all be various different
kinds of errors. All these errors are all similar in magnitude and
all towards the observer. Let's just say that's quite a
coincidence...

Your argument is typical of the failures of modern cosmology, where
people try to fit observations to existing theoretical assumptions.
Progress will only ever be made when people question their assumptions
and fit theory to observation. BTW, this is how real science gets
done.

"Nodem Info. Sys." wrote in message
...
Jonathan Silverlight wrote
in message ...
In message , Nodem Info.
Sys. writes
Craig Markwardt wrote in message
...
**SNIP**
Also unlikely. An extra concentration of (dark) matter around the
sun
should have been detectable in the motions of the planets, but has
not
been. This is discussed in the Anderson et al (2001) paper.

The most mundane explanation is, as mentioned already, improper
modeling of the spacecraft radiative properties.

CM

There are three totally different space craft designs, all showing the
same effect, in the same direction, at the same magnitude. This can't
be a radiative effect and be *that* consistant. Come on!

One problem with that argument is that the later and much more
comprehensive paper by Anderson et al.
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/0104064 notes that the effect for
Ulysses is highly correlated with solar radiation pressure, and the
effect for Galileo is highly inconsistent, probably due to gas leaks.

One of the tasks of the Cassini probe was to act as a platform for this
sort of acceleration measurement (to measure gravity waves and
relativistic effects) and Cassini shows no anomaly.

I've had time to study the Cassini measurements and yes, there is no
anomaly. However, the reason for this is the way the measurement
methos differs from the other probes. The Cassini time-delay
measurement should show no real change in the velocity, which is
expected and fully consistent with my result.

What my result refers to is an apparent geometry feature of space-time
which only effects measurements made via Doppler ranging. This
results in an apparent acceleration towards the observer, and does not
represent a real change in the velocity of the probe.

[REF: NKS 2004 proceedings, Alastair Hewitt, "A Cosmological Model
Utilizing Causal-temporal Mobile Automaton", Materials 2]

http://www.wolframscience.com/confer...terial/ahewitt
-2.pdf

As for the other probes, yes these could all be various different
kinds of errors. All these errors are all similar in magnitude and
all towards the observer. Let's just say that's quite a
coincidence...

Your argument is typical of the failures of modern cosmology, where
people try to fit observations to existing theoretical assumptions.
Progress will only ever be made when people question their assumptions
and fit theory to observation. BTW, this is how real science gets done.

The "much more comprehensive paper by Anderson et al."[12002(HE)]
notes good fit to an "existing theoretical assumption": (traditional) tired
light,
which is dismissed for well known reasons, see e.g. Ned Wright's tuition
webpage. There is however a tired light mechanism of cosmological origin
based on a new formalism that is capable of refuting all of Ned Wright's
claims. See http://www.estfound.org/pioneer.htm . This redshift mechanism
is predicted by a new non ad hoc GR cosmos theory that you may find too
speculative. Then bear in mind that the observed acceleration anomaly may
be a strong evidence supporting this Scale Expanding Spacetime theory.
/Kurt B.

Suggest reading the papers by all
http://www.google.com/search?q=pione...te%3AarXiv.org

(Nodem Info. Sys.) writes:
I've had time to study the Cassini measurements and yes, there is no
anomaly. However, the reason for this is the way the measurement
methos differs from the other probes. The Cassini time-delay
measurement should show no real change in the velocity, which is
expected and fully consistent with my result.

You are in fact incorrect. The recent Cassini results published in
Nature are based on radiometric Doppler tracking, just as the Anderson
et al results for Pioneer 10, 11, and other spacecraft results were.

The difference is that the Cassini spacecraft is able to transpond at
dual frequencies, so analysts are able to correct for the solar plasma
more precisely than for previous spacecraft. Thus, the Cassini data
are even more sensitive to velocity changes than the previous data
were.

CM

"kurtan" writes:
The "much more comprehensive paper by Anderson et al."[12002(HE)]
notes good fit to an "existing theoretical assumption": (traditional) tired
light,
.... Then bear in mind that the observed acceleration anomaly may
be a strong evidence supporting this Scale Expanding Spacetime theory.
/Kurt B.

The apparent fatal flaw in your proposition is that the Pioneer 10
effect is a slight frequency *increase* compared to the expected
value, whereas tired light scenarios would tend to *decrease* the
frequency.

CM

Sam Wormley wrote:

Suggest reading the papers by all
http://www.google.com/search?q=pione...te%3AarXiv.org

Suggest requiring "pioneer" and "10" to be significantly close together
(http://tinyurl.com/2hz5p ,

http://www.google.com/search?num=50&...ie=ISO-8859-1&
q=%22pioneer+10%22+site%3AarXiv.org&btnG=Search

242 hits versus 1870.


--- Graham Cowan
http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.doc --
fireproof fuel, real-car range, no emissions

On Sat, 22 May 2004 09:35:24 GMT, Craig Markwardt
wrote:

(Nodem Info. Sys.) writes:
I've had time to study the Cassini measurements and yes, there is no
anomaly. However, the reason for this is the way the measurement
methos differs from the other probes. The Cassini time-delay
measurement should show no real change in the velocity, which is
expected and fully consistent with my result.

You are in fact incorrect. The recent Cassini results published in
Nature are based on radiometric Doppler tracking, just as the Anderson
et al results for Pioneer 10, 11, and other spacecraft results were.

The difference is that the Cassini spacecraft is able to transpond at
dual frequencies, so analysts are able to correct for the solar plasma
more precisely than for previous spacecraft. Thus, the Cassini data
are even more sensitive to velocity changes than the previous data
were.

CM
Only the Pioneers are able to show evidence of the anomaly.

See the reference below which says that "other probes in the outer
solar system, such as the Voyagers and the Cassini probe, en route to
Saturn and Titan, can't provide any useful data....Later probes were
stabilized about three axes by intermittent rocket boosts. The
unpredictable accelerations cause by these are at least 10 times
bigger than a small effect like the Pioneer acceleration, so they
completely cloak it. Pioneers are spin-stabilized, making them a
particularly simple platform to understand."
http://buckyballmusic.com/progressivity/pioneer.html

Craig Markwardt wrote in message ...
(Nodem Info. Sys.) writes:
I've had time to study the Cassini measurements and yes, there is no
anomaly. However, the reason for this is the way the measurement
methos differs from the other probes. The Cassini time-delay
measurement should show no real change in the velocity, which is
expected and fully consistent with my result.

You are in fact incorrect. The recent Cassini results published in
Nature are based on radiometric Doppler tracking, just as the Anderson
et al results for Pioneer 10, 11, and other spacecraft results were.

The difference is that the Cassini spacecraft is able to transpond at
dual frequencies, so analysts are able to correct for the solar plasma
more precisely than for previous spacecraft. Thus, the Cassini data
are even more sensitive to velocity changes than the previous data
were.

CM

I guess I should have been a bit more specific. The Doppler tracking
data includes a 'modeled' acceleration, which is partly determined by
the time-delay measurement. In gr-qc/0308010, this is given as -26.7
* 10^-8 cm/s^2, and it would appear that the 'Pioneer anomaly' has
been inadvertently rolled into this number, but still makes up less
than a third of it.

The Cassini spacecraft doesn't make the best platform to test the
Pioneer anomaly, but it has shown that this anomaly is not a real
change in velocity (ruling out alternative gravity theories).

My prediction implies an 'apparent' deceleration of 8.14 * 10^-8
cm/s^2 in radial velocity. So far no observations have disagreed with
this.

"John C. Polasek" writes:

Only the Pioneers are able to show evidence of the anomaly.

See the reference below which says that "other probes in the outer
solar system, such as the Voyagers and the Cassini probe, en route to
Saturn and Titan, can't provide any useful data....Later probes were
stabilized about three axes by intermittent rocket boosts. The
unpredictable accelerations cause by these are at least 10 times
bigger than a small effect like the Pioneer acceleration, so they
completely cloak it. Pioneers are spin-stabilized, making them a
particularly simple platform to understand."
http://buckyballmusic.com/progressivity/pioneer.html


There is some danger in using press releases, especially out of
context, as a source of facts. To say that later probes "can't supply
useful data" is not really fair.

Of course they supply useful data, since after all Doppler tracking is
in fact the means to navigate them!

It is true in general to say that Cassini and other newer spacecraft
have been three-axis stabilized, and experience more maneuvers which
can confound the analysis. However, it is also true that during the
Cassini radiometric relativity tests under discussion, the spacecraft
did not use thrusters or momentum wheel dumps, so the above criticism
is not an issue.

Craig

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Craig B. Markwardt, Ph.D. EMAIL:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Nodem Info. Sys.) writes:

The Cassini spacecraft doesn't make the best platform to test the
Pioneer anomaly, but it has shown that this anomaly is not a real
change in velocity (ruling out alternative gravity theories).

How has the Cassini spacecraft shown that the Pioneer anomaly is not a
real change in velocity?

CM