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No Alien Visits Ever



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 17th 18, 05:46 PM posted to sci.astro
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Default No Alien Visits Ever

A very good reason why we're never visited by any aliens :

Distances between stars are way too great, as to preclude any
possibility of practical travel between them. Like everything, Aliens
would be limited to the accepted and proven speed limit of
c = 3E8 m/sec, and practically and likely something FAR slower.
Distance = Speed x Time. Do the simple math.

Probably just as well. If Man is any example, then aliens who would
likely be more advanced, and would view Mankind as a primitive entity
to be used at will. We might make delicious hors d'oeuvres !
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  #2  
Old December 17th 18, 06:17 PM posted to sci.astro
Jan Panteltje
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Default No Alien Visits Ever

casagiannoni wrote:
A very good reason why we're never visited by any aliens :

Distances between stars are way too great, as to preclude any
possibility of practical travel between them. Like everything, Aliens
would be limited to the accepted and proven speed limit of
c = 3E8 m/sec, and practically and likely something FAR slower.
Distance = Speed x Time. Do the simple math.

Probably just as well. If Man is any example, then aliens who would
likely be more advanced, and would view Mankind as a primitive entity
to be used at will. We might make delicious hors d'oeuvres !


A few hundred years ago it was known that nobody could sail the oceans faster than the wind
and birds could only fly because those were lighter than air.

Twenty first century fishsicks is really wrong on many issues.
Yes life on earth could well be a RNA experiment by some alien kid
that got a Doctor Monster kit for its birthday.


  #3  
Old December 17th 18, 06:56 PM posted to sci.astro
dlzc
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Default No Alien Visits Ever

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 10:17:46 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
casagiannoni wrote:
A very good reason why we're never visited by any
aliens :

Distances between stars are way too great, as to
preclude any possibility of practical travel
between them. Like everything, Aliens would be
limited to the accepted and proven speed limit of
c = 3E8 m/sec, and practically and likely
something FAR slower.
Distance = Speed x Time. Do the simple math.

Probably just as well. If Man is any example,
then aliens who would likely be more advanced,
and would view Mankind as a primitive entity to
be used at will. We might make delicious hors
d'oeuvres !


We'd probably be toxic, but you have a good point.

A few hundred years ago it was known that nobody
could sail the oceans faster than the wind and
birds could only fly because those were lighter
than air.


.... and we have "ideas" here, on how one MIGHT get around the "cannot move faster than the speed of light" problem. Aliens might have had these ideas for long enough to have developed one or more of them.

Twenty first century fishsicks is really wrong on
many issues. Yes life on earth could well be a
RNA experiment by some alien kid that got a Doctor
Monster kit for its birthday.


Nature has great patience. Our precursors may have been traveling between the stars for million of years. No need for space ships that way...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...llar_molecules

David A. Smith
  #4  
Old December 17th 18, 10:18 PM posted to sci.astro
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Default No Alien Visits Ever


A few hundred years ago it was known that nobody could sail the oceans faster than the wind
and birds could only fly because those were lighter than air.

There are some absolutes confirmed to be part of the nature of things.
e.g. law of gravity, electro dynamics, etc.

c speed limit is in that category.

Nothing has ever been seen to go faster even in the Hadron and the
like.

Nobody ever thought birds were somehow lighter than air.
  #5  
Old December 18th 18, 06:05 AM posted to sci.astro
Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
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Posts: 67
Default No Alien Visits Ever

wrote:
A very good reason why we're never visited by any aliens :


Already discussed and refuted.

Distances between stars are way too great, as to preclude any
possibility of practical travel between them. Like everything, Aliens
would be limited to the accepted and proven speed limit of
c = 3E8 m/sec,


It is c = 1/√(ε₀ ε_r) = 299'792'458 m/s (exact) instead.

[“sec” is not a proper abbreviation in the SI, which defines c.]

https://www.bipm.org/en/publications/si-brochure/

But that is only the *local* speed limit for objects with *real* mass.

[It is has been stated, and I have proved independently, that objects
with imaginary mass would have to move at v c: v = √(1 − m²c⁴/E²)
according to special relativity. However, the suggestion of equivalent
imaginary energy which would kill this idea gives me pause as of yet.]

But:

“Space can do whatever the hell it wants.”

—Lawrence M. Krauss, theoretical physicist and cosmologist

General relativity permits an Alcubierre-style warp drive that would allow
us to travel much faster. You only have to find some negative energy to
expand space behind you

Consider that space in a black hole is falling faster than c:

http://jila.colorado.edu/~ajsh/insidebh/waterfall.html

And space is already expanding faster than c beyond ca. 14 Gly away (and
that is assuming a *constant* Hubble parameter, which is not so – the
expansion is accelerated):

v_rec = H₀ D,

with H₀ ≈ (70 km/s)/Mpc and D the proper distance.

We have no theory of quantum gravity yet, so there might be stable wormholes.

We understand only ca. 5 % (baryonic matter) of the energy content of our
universe *quite* well (not completely: e.g., neutrinos apparently have
non-zero mass and should not have according to the standard model) – who
knows what other possibilities there are?

and practically and likely something FAR slower.


Using conventional means, yes. Project “Breakthrough Starshot” aims at
0.15 c to Proxima Centauri (for the probe the journey takes about 27.6 years
then, see below), but those are only starchips[tm].

http://breakthroughinitiatives.org/challenges/3

And BTW, Proxima Centauri b is the closest Earth-like planet that we have
found yet (in 2016), only 4.2 ly away. There might be extra-terrestrials
there, and they could be here within years (or faster, see above).

Distance = Speed x Time. Do the simple math.


It is not that simple. You are applying special relativity incompletely
(and therefore inconsistently):

If you travel at v towards an object for an observer at rest to that object,
then that object travels at −v relative to you, and those *moving* distances
to those objects are length-contracted for you by the Lorentz factor

γ(v) = 1/√(1 − (−v)²/c²) = 1/√(1 − v²/c²).

In this way, you can reach the center of the Milky Way (ca. 25'618 ly ≈ 7855
pc away) *within* your human lifetime *without* cryogenics (you do NOT have
to wait more than 25'618 years before you arrive).

Fuel problems aside, the only problem left is time dilation: When you return
this way, nobody whom you knew would be alive (for them, there is no length
contraction, but there is time dilation, and it took you twenty million
years to come back), and human civilization may be long gone. So it would
still be a one-way trip in that sense.

Do the not-so-simple math

Probably just as well. If Man is any example, then aliens who would
likely be more advanced, and would view Mankind as a primitive entity
to be used at will. We might make delicious hors d'oeuvres !


A distinct possibility, but not the only one. Consider where human
civilization could be if it had progressed from the ancient civilizations,
without the (probably unintentional but still careless) burning of the
Library of Alexandria by the Romans under Julius Caesar, without
the Dark Ages, the Inquisition, all the small wars and the two World Wars.

--
PointedEars

Twitter: @PointedEars2
Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.
  #7  
Old December 18th 18, 08:26 AM posted to sci.astro
Jan Panteltje
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Posts: 447
Default No Alien Visits Ever

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote
A distinct possibility, but not the only one. Consider where human
civilization could be if it had progressed from the ancient civilizations,
without the (probably unintentional but still careless) burning of the
Library of Alexandria by the Romans under Julius Caesar, without
the Dark Ages, the Inquisition, all the small wars and the two World Wars.


Interesting viewpoint,.
I do however think it is just those periods of war
where technology significantly advanced.
We see in WW2 for example V1 V1, invention of microwave radar (magnetron),
basically one part of the species trying to outsmart the other part.
War being part of evolution,

The Germans burned many books.. yet their submarines and missiles were a game changer.


  #8  
Old December 18th 18, 08:18 PM posted to sci.astro
Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
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Posts: 67
Default No Alien Visits Ever

Jan Panteltje wrote:
Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote
A distinct possibility, but not the only one. Consider where human
civilization could be if it had progressed from the ancient civilizations,
without the (probably unintentional but still careless) burning of the
Library of Alexandria by the Romans under Julius Caesar, without
the Dark Ages, the Inquisition, all the small wars and the two World Wars.


Interesting viewpoint,.
I do however think it is just those periods of war
where technology significantly advanced.


That is a common argument, but it does not convince me.

We see in WW2 for example V1 V1, invention of microwave radar (magnetron),
basically one part of the species trying to outsmart the other part.
War being part of evolution,


It is not. It is *a* way for the development of a species, but it certainly
is not the best way as it can easily lead to the species extinction by
self-destruction.

For example, you cannot possibly believe that the slaughtering of millions
of humans because they were considered to not be worthy of living would be
in any way an evolution of the species.

Had not two humans come to their senses in the Cuba Crisis, we would not be
here, and had not two other humans, one who is, I think rightfully, honored
for those efforts these days, come to their senses in the nuclear race, we
might not be here.

And you have neglected to consider all the discoveries and inventions that
make everyday life easier that were made in times of peace.

The Germans burned many books.. yet their submarines and missiles were a game changer.


It were the Nazis, not the Germans, who did this. As a German, I strongly
object to your oversimplifying description. (I hope) we (as a people) have
learned our lesson from our history: Never again!

--
PointedEars

Twitter: @PointedEars2
Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.
  #9  
Old December 18th 18, 09:19 PM posted to sci.astro
Jan Panteltje
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Posts: 447
Default No Alien Visits Ever

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote
Jan Panteltje wrote:
Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote
A distinct possibility, but not the only one. Consider where human
civilization could be if it had progressed from the ancient civilizations,
without the (probably unintentional but still careless) burning of the
Library of Alexandria by the Romans under Julius Caesar, without
the Dark Ages, the Inquisition, all the small wars and the two World Wars.


Interesting viewpoint,.
I do however think it is just those periods of war
where technology significantly advanced.


That is a common argument, but it does not convince me.

We see in WW2 for example V1 V1, invention of microwave radar (magnetron),
basically one part of the species trying to outsmart the other part.
War being part of evolution,


It is not. It is *a* way for the development of a species, but it certainly
is not the best way as it can easily lead to the species extinction by
self-destruction.


Maybe you are thinking that the modern weapons like nuclear will kill everything
and everybody.
This is likely not the case, experiments with radiation have shown that new mutations can happen
and we even need only one special mutaton, one genius, to make humanity take a huge step forward.

In the Chernobyl area, where humans have been kept away since it all got polluted
wildlife thrives!
We are not supposed to know that it seems, the video was removed from youtube it seems
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz2HEwEy8rg

It is the same with glowballworming, here the real reason:
http://old.world-mysteries.com/alignments/mpl_al3b.htm
and the site was replaced by this:
http://www.world-mysteries.com/

Clearly a conspiracy to tax the weather, for you in Germany to buy a new car if you had a diesel,
and live in fear of the bomb.

See, I am in the Netherlands, your next door neighbor so to speak,
watch German TV..



For example, you cannot possibly believe that the slaughtering of millions
of humans because they were considered to not be worthy of living would be
in any way an evolution of the species.


In the jungle, it is often one ant heap against an other.
Sharks eat millions of small fish, we eat animals.
So one type of fish eats an other type of fish, cannibalism was common too.



Had not two humans come to their senses in the Cuba Crisis, we would not be
here, and had not two other humans, one who is, I think rightfully, honored
for those efforts these days, come to their senses in the nuclear race, we
might not be here.


Oh the Cuba standoff, I do not think much would have changed, Russia and US
would have been a bit more polluted than those are now, life would go on.

You must understand that *** never in history have weapons not been uses ***
So it will come to your city soon...
How soon? US is on its return, soon the world with change to an other currency than the US dollar,
maybe the Euro, maybe Chinese currency, and in a last attempt
to be in control, US may start a nuclear war.
Already trump wants small portable nukes IIRC.
US will prefer war away from its bed, they will try to make war in Europe,
working hard on it in Ukrain.

Look at history, empires come and go, nothing changes.
A couple of thousand years setback is possible after such a nuclear war, but then it will start all over again.


And you have neglected to consider all the discoveries and inventions that
make everyday life easier that were made in times of peace.


Well it works a bit different, new things and new standards are being created to be able to sell and sell and sell and sell and se//

Now your electric car, you ultra ultra HD digital TV, your Xpad, your...



The Germans burned many books.. yet their submarines and missiles were a game changer.


It were the Nazis, not the Germans, who did this.


Oh come on, it was the Hitler jugend, and it was the Germans.
And quite honesty a lot of the crap we have now should be burned too,
maybe including this posting, but then...


As a German, I strongly
object to your oversimplifying description. (I hope) we (as a people) have
learned our lesson from our history: Never again!


Few generations and history is forgotten.

Merkel and inflow of fugitives from wars US makes to be able to sell its weapons,
the business model, will make ultra right rise again, trump is helping with that by sending his ultra right
messenger to us (forgot the dudes name), as war must happen so he can sell.


IMO we should just force a regime change in the US.
German engineering French nukes a strong European army, and make an alliance with Russia,
and that will put the US in its place.

US is almost completely isolated these days, N America a small spot on the planet versus
China, Russia, plus Europe, now China's influence in South America is growing, Russian influence there too,
beware of the last insane moves the dying US will make.

Anyways, what was the subject again?
(looks in newsreader)
oh yes Alien visitors.

Likely they will leave some humans alive, take them to their zoos all over the galaxies,
where alien kids and their parents come to see how humans play and mate and what they look like.
If language and technology will still evolve after generations in an alien cage I doubt it.

In all this I can only say: May the best one win.
THAT is evolution.

If we do not make it to some other planet and set up colonies there, we are doomed anyways as one day the sun will engulf the earth if
I understood it right and burn everything,
Maybe by that time there will be a totally different species and humans gone the way of the dinos.

OUR view, is like that of an ant climbing up against a wall,
it has no idea who put the wall there, what the thoughts of the architect were, what it is build from and for,
and where it goes.
And never will, too few neurons to put it very simply.

So, this ant and this filosophy for what it is worth.

So Spock, there you are.
Logic

  #10  
Old December 19th 18, 08:33 PM posted to sci.astro
Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
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Posts: 67
Default No Alien Visits Ever

Jan Panteltje wrote:
Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote
Jan Panteltje wrote:
We see in WW2 for example V1 V1, invention of microwave radar (magnetron),
basically one part of the species trying to outsmart the other part.
War being part of evolution,


It is not. It is *a* way for the development of a species, but it certainly
is not the best way as it can easily lead to the species’ extinction by
self-destruction.


Maybe you are thinking that the modern weapons like nuclear will kill everything
and everybody.
This is likely not the case, […]


Sorry, but you have no clue what you are talking about.

experiments with radiation have shown that new mutations can happen


Your cells cannot mutate if you are dead. Simple logic.

[off-topic: tl;dr]


--
PointedEars

Twitter: @PointedEars2
Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.
 




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