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1) the negative paraxes...



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 11th 16, 09:30 AM posted to sci.astro
[email protected]
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Posts: 73
Default 1) the negative paraxes...

...from the topic ''Letter to a friend ''
... the negative parallaxes are a big mistery , as i told many times
... almost nobody want to speak about it , and almost all don't know its existence
... Eistein and de Sitter could not imagine a similar thing
... not only , untill the years 2000 nobody had suspected that existence
... so difficult to understand ! but exactly the half of not near bodies ( stars , galaxies , quasars..) have a negative parallaxes .. and you must make alone all the mental paths around its .. no books , no profs ,no magicians ...: i can only say my opinions ..and discuss with you that opinions , trying togheter a reasonable street where nobody walked .. ( i think that the negative parallaxes ' solution can influence directly the dark matter and the age of universe )
.. main asks and next program : 1) what is a parallax and a negative parallax? 2) how a negative parallax can enter in our science?
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  #2  
Old December 11th 16, 04:57 PM posted to sci.astro
Mike Dworetsky
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Posts: 715
Default 1) the negative paraxes...

wrote:
..from the topic ''Letter to a friend ''
.. the negative parallaxes are a big mistery , as i told many times
.. almost nobody want to speak about it , and almost all don't know
its existence


Assuming you are talking about entries in a parallax catalogue or list, any
astronomer should know why there are negative parallaxes in the list.

.. Eistein and de Sitter could not imagine a similar thing
.. not only , untill the years 2000 nobody had suspected that
existence


Definitely an incorrect statement. Negative parallaxes have been known
about for more than a century.

.. so difficult to understand ! but exactly the half of not near
bodies ( stars , galaxies , quasars..) have a negative parallaxes ..


Your suspicion is correct. If you have a list of parallaxes of very distant
objects, so that their parallaxes are on average much smaller than your
limit of detection, then the errors of parallax are distributed normally,
with a bell-shaped curve plotting the likely distribution of values around a
mean of nearly zero. Hence we expect there to be approximately half of
those published parallaxes with values less than zero and half with values
more.

and you must make alone all the mental paths around its .. no books ,
no profs ,no magicians ...: i can only say my opinions ..and discuss
with you that opinions , trying togheter a reasonable street where
nobody walked .. ( i think that the negative parallaxes ' solution
can influence directly the dark matter and the age of universe )


This sounds a bit mystical. All that is happening is that very distant
objects have parallaxes so small that they cannot be determined with
accuracy, so half are going to be negative and half positive.

.. main asks and next program : 1) what is a parallax and a negative
parallax? 2) how a negative parallax can enter in our science?


If we rejected any measured result with a negative parallax, then we would
decide that the average of the positive values was real, hence we would
deduce that these very distant objects were actually a lot closer than they
really were. This would be a very bad mistake.

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

  #3  
Old December 11th 16, 05:11 PM posted to sci.astro
Poutnik[_5_]
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Posts: 68
Default 1) the negative paraxes...

Dne 11/12/2016 v 17:57 Mike Dworetsky napsal(a):


Your suspicion is correct. If you have a list of parallaxes of very
distant objects, so that their parallaxes are on average much smaller
than your limit of detection, then the errors of parallax are
distributed normally, with a bell-shaped curve plotting the likely
distribution of values around a mean of nearly zero. Hence we expect
there to be approximately half of those published parallaxes with values
less than zero and half with values more.

The question remains,
why the data with parallax value within the measurement error
is not replaced by an appropriate note,
instead of publication of noise.

--
Poutnik ( The Pilgrim, Der Wanderer )

A wise man guards words he says,
as they say about him more,
than he says about the subject.
  #4  
Old December 11th 16, 09:50 PM posted to sci.astro
Mike Dworetsky
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Posts: 715
Default 1) the negative paraxes...

Poutnik wrote:
Dne 11/12/2016 v 17:57 Mike Dworetsky napsal(a):


Your suspicion is correct. If you have a list of parallaxes of very
distant objects, so that their parallaxes are on average much smaller
than your limit of detection, then the errors of parallax are
distributed normally, with a bell-shaped curve plotting the likely
distribution of values around a mean of nearly zero. Hence we expect
there to be approximately half of those published parallaxes with
values less than zero and half with values more.

The question remains,
why the data with parallax value within the measurement error
is not replaced by an appropriate note,
instead of publication of noise.


For exactly the reason I stated in the part of my reply that you snipped:
Negative values are unphysical, but form the part of the statistical
distribution of values that happen to lie below zero when the mean is close
to zero.

Imagine that someone plotted a graph of, say, a spectrum (with low S/N), and
wherever the plotted flux was below zero, they simply truncated it. Would
you be happy with that? I wouldn't.

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

  #5  
Old December 12th 16, 06:42 AM posted to sci.astro
Poutnik[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 68
Default 1) the negative paraxes...

Dne 11/12/2016 v 22:50 Mike Dworetsky napsal(a):
Poutnik wrote:

The question remains,
why the data with parallax value within the measurement error
is not replaced by an appropriate note,
instead of publication of noise.


For exactly the reason I stated in the part of my reply that you
snipped: Negative values are unphysical, but form the part of the
statistical distribution of values that happen to lie below zero when
the mean is close to zero.


Positive and negative noise values are equally unphysical.

Imagine that someone plotted a graph of, say, a spectrum (with low S/N),
and wherever the plotted flux was below zero, they simply truncated it.
Would you be happy with that? I wouldn't.


IMHO He should truncated all measurements
with zero belonging to CI of the measurement (mean) value,
as with statistically insignificant difference to zero.

--
Poutnik ( The Pilgrim, Der Wanderer )

A wise man guards words he says,
as they say about him more,
than he says about the subject.
  #6  
Old December 13th 16, 08:44 AM posted to sci.astro
Martin Brown
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,707
Default 1) the negative paraxes...

On 12/12/2016 06:42, Poutnik wrote:
Dne 11/12/2016 v 22:50 Mike Dworetsky napsal(a):
Poutnik wrote:

The question remains,
why the data with parallax value within the measurement error
is not replaced by an appropriate note,
instead of publication of noise.


For exactly the reason I stated in the part of my reply that you
snipped: Negative values are unphysical, but form the part of the
statistical distribution of values that happen to lie below zero when
the mean is close to zero.


Positive and negative noise values are equally unphysical.


But you only know for certain that the negative values are unphysical
the positive ones could be real to within some measurement error. Later
more refined experiments may be able to narrow down the error bars.

BTW The speed of light in vacuum with error bars displayed makes
salutary reading for anyone over confident in good experimental method.
Essentially one famous experimenter applied a partial vacuum correction
in the wrong direction for a new method and everyone copied him until an
even more exquisitely sensitive technique gave a different answer. So
for a couple of decades the speed of light was very precisely wrong due
to unrecognised systematic errors. The graph was in an introductory
relativity book but I forget which one - anyone recognise it from this?

Imagine that someone plotted a graph of, say, a spectrum (with low S/N),
and wherever the plotted flux was below zero, they simply truncated it.
Would you be happy with that? I wouldn't.


IMHO He should truncated all measurements
with zero belonging to CI of the measurement (mean) value,
as with statistically insignificant difference to zero.


No. Provided that it is stated somewhere what the limits of detection
for the method actually is then the value determined even if it is
negative is more useful to later researchers than a "below LOD" flag.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #7  
Old December 14th 16, 07:44 AM posted to sci.astro
Poutnik[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 68
Default 1) the negative paraxes...

Dne 13/12/2016 v 09:44 Martin Brown napsal(a):
On 12/12/2016 06:42, Poutnik wrote:



For exactly the reason I stated in the part of my reply that you
snipped: Negative values are unphysical, but form the part of the
statistical distribution of values that happen to lie below zero when
the mean is close to zero.


Positive and negative noise values are equally unphysical.


But you only know for certain that the negative values are unphysical
the positive ones could be real to within some measurement error. Later
more refined experiments may be able to narrow down the error bars.


Later experiment can. But I speak in context of this one.
These small values are not statistically justified,
as there is high probability it is just a noice.



Imagine that someone plotted a graph of, say, a spectrum (with low S/N),
and wherever the plotted flux was below zero, they simply truncated it.
Would you be happy with that? I wouldn't.


IMHO He should truncated all measurements
with zero belonging to CI of the measurement (mean) value,
as with statistically insignificant difference to zero.


No. Provided that it is stated somewhere what the limits of detection
for the method actually is then the value determined even if it is
negative is more useful to later researchers than a "below LOD" flag.

One thing is raw data, other thing is published processed data.
The limits should be available to a team of original data.

Such a limit can be estimated from the fluctuation around zero,
for stars where expected value is low enough.

--
Poutnik ( The Pilgrim, Der Wanderer )

A wise man guards words he says,
as they say about him more,
than he says about the subject.
  #8  
Old December 14th 16, 08:11 AM posted to sci.astro
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 73
Default 1) the negative paraxes...

Il giorno mercoledì 14 dicembre 2016 08:44:15 UTC+1, Poutnik ha scritto:
Dne 13/12/2016 v 09:44 Martin Brown napsal(a):
On 12/12/2016 06:42, Poutnik wrote:



For exactly the reason I stated in the part of my reply that you
snipped: Negative values are unphysical, but form the part of the
statistical distribution of values that happen to lie below zero when
the mean is close to zero.

Positive and negative noise values are equally unphysical.


But you only know for certain that the negative values are unphysical
the positive ones could be real to within some measurement error. Later
more refined experiments may be able to narrow down the error bars.


Later experiment can. But I speak in context of this one.
These small values are not statistically justified,
as there is high probability it is just a noice.



Imagine that someone plotted a graph of, say, a spectrum (with low S/N),
and wherever the plotted flux was below zero, they simply truncated it.

  #9  
Old December 14th 16, 01:43 PM posted to sci.astro
Mike Dworetsky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 715
Default 1) the negative paraxes...

wrote:
Il giorno mercoledì 14 dicembre 2016 08:44:15 UTC+1, Poutnik ha
scritto:
Dne 13/12/2016 v 09:44 Martin Brown napsal(a):
On 12/12/2016 06:42, Poutnik wrote:



For exactly the reason I stated in the part of my reply that you
snipped: Negative values are unphysical, but form the part of the
statistical distribution of values that happen to lie below zero
when the mean is close to zero.

Positive and negative noise values are equally unphysical.

But you only know for certain that the negative values are
unphysical the positive ones could be real to within some
measurement error. Later more refined experiments may be able to
narrow down the error bars.


Later experiment can. But I speak in context of this one.
These small values are not statistically justified,
as there is high probability it is just a noice.



Imagine that someone plotted a graph of, say, a spectrum (with
low S/N), and wherever the plotted flux was below zero, they
simply truncated it. Would you be happy with that? I wouldn't.

IMHO He should truncated all measurements
with zero belonging to CI of the measurement (mean) value,
as with statistically insignificant difference to zero.

No. Provided that it is stated somewhere what the limits of
detection for the method actually is then the value determined even
if it is negative is more useful to later researchers than a "below
LOD" flag.

One thing is raw data, other thing is published processed data.
The limits should be available to a team of original data.

Such a limit can be estimated from the fluctuation around zero,
for stars where expected value is low enough.

--
Poutnik ( The Pilgrim, Der Wanderer )

A wise man guards words he says,
as they say about him more,
than he says about the subject.


..thanks for contributions to Poutnik , to Mike , to Procarytic ..and
..
.. the old negative parallaxes could keep the errors ..but , i think
, if you repeated its , you could get a very different value nearer
to the rigth-one ...
.. the new parallaxes (HTS) have four significant numbers and if you
repeat , you get the same value ( so the man ,who wrote its , let me
to understand.. ) ( the measures of Bjmag , for galaxies , have the
same five significant numbers also if repeated during years ...) ...
the 'dramaticity' is that : the negative ones are truly negative
because there are intermediate bodies ... (so that man told) ..
.. in 'google astro' you can read the topic 'Link between dark
matter.. ' ...somebody proposes that the dark matter are powders ,
stones , little asteroides.. :so, for having the mass of dark matter
,probabely the sky should be not trasparent and unable to deviate
gravitationally - or rephrationally, then we see that - the ligth for
giving the negative parallaxes ...i suppose the black dwarfes and an
universe ' age many times longer than supposed , so trasparent and
able to deviate the light ...


I don't think any of this is close to reality. Parallax is a geometric
effect due to the earth's orbital motion around the Sun. It would not have
anything to do with refraction or gravitational lensing. If you are
thinking of some sort of photometric estimation of stellar distance, this is
called "photometric parallax" but it has nothing to do with geometry.

.. untill 200-300 y.l. , the white dwrfes are visible almost without
having neg parallaxes ... after it begins the problem.. and the warm
stars ( O,B,A) are deviating the ligth easierly , nearerly ... and
the warm galaxies are desparing easierly , for the same sigth' angle


I'm not sure I understand what you are saying but early type stars have
small parallaxes because they are a long way from us. These are so small
that many measures are effectively zero so individual measures would be half
positive and half negative.

...
.. cutting some steps : in a time almost infinite , the light could
condense like matter in the outern fields and the black dwarfes could
be the fuel and engine of the galaxy..


This does not sound like any physics or astrophysics I know about.
Hand-waving is not the same as carefully reasoned analysis.

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

  #10  
Old December 18th 16, 11:16 AM posted to sci.astro
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 73
Default 1) the negative paraxes...

Il giorno mercoledì 14 dicembre 2016 14:43:54 UTC+1, Mike Dworetsky ha scritto:
wrote:
Il giorno mercoledì 14 dicembre 2016 08:44:15 UTC+1, Poutnik ha
scritto:
Dne 13/12/2016 v 09:44 Martin Brown napsal(a):
On 12/12/2016 06:42, Poutnik wrote:


For exactly the reason I stated in the part of my reply that you
snipped: Negative values are unphysical, but form the part of the
statistical distribution of values that happen to lie below zero
when the mean is close to zero.

Positive and negative noise values are equally unphysical.

But you only know for certain that the negative values are
unphysical the positive ones could be real to within some
measurement error. Later more refined experiments may be able to
narrow down the error bars.

Later experiment can. But I speak in context of this one.
These small values are not statistically justified,
as there is high probability it is just a noice.



Imagine that someone plotted a graph of, say, a spectrum (with
low S/N), and wherever the plotted flux was below zero, they
simply truncated it. Would you be happy with that? I wouldn't.

IMHO He should truncated all measurements
with zero belonging to CI of the measurement (mean) value,
as with statistically insignificant difference to zero.

No. Provided that it is stated somewhere what the limits of
detection for the method actually is then the value determined even
if it is negative is more useful to later researchers than a "below
LOD" flag.

One thing is raw data, other thing is published processed data.
The limits should be available to a team of original data.

Such a limit can be estimated from the fluctuation around zero,
for stars where expected value is low enough.

--
Poutnik ( The Pilgrim, Der Wanderer )

A wise man guards words he says,
as they say about him more,
than he says about the subject.


..thanks for contributions to Poutnik , to Mike , to Procarytic ..and
..
.. the old negative parallaxes could keep the errors ..but , i think
, if you repeated its , you could get a very different value nearer
to the rigth-one ...
.. the new parallaxes (HTS) have four significant numbers and if you
repeat , you get the same value ( so the man ,who wrote its , let me
to understand.. ) ( the measures of Bjmag , for galaxies , have the
same five significant numbers also if repeated during years ...) ...
the 'dramaticity' is that : the negative ones are truly negative
because there are intermediate bodies ... (so that man told) ..
.. in 'google astro' you can read the topic 'Link between dark
matter.. ' ...somebody proposes that the dark matter are powders ,
stones , little asteroides.. :so, for having the mass of dark matter
,probabely the sky should be not trasparent and unable to deviate
gravitationally - or rephrationally, then we see that - the ligth for
giving the negative parallaxes ...i suppose the black dwarfes and an
universe ' age many times longer than supposed , so trasparent and
able to deviate the light ...


I don't think any of this is close to reality. Parallax is a geometric
effect due to the earth's orbital motion around the Sun. It would not have
anything to do with refraction or gravitational lensing. If you are
thinking of some sort of photometric estimation of stellar distance, this is
called "photometric parallax" but it has nothing to do with geometry.

.. untill 200-300 y.l. , the white dwrfes are visible almost without
having neg parallaxes ... after it begins the problem.. and the warm
stars ( O,B,A) are deviating the ligth easierly , nearerly ... and
the warm galaxies are desparing easierly , for the same sigth' angle


I'm not sure I understand what you are saying but early type stars have
small parallaxes because they are a long way from us. These are so small
that many measures are effectively zero so individual measures would be half
positive and half negative.

...
.. cutting some steps : in a time almost infinite , the light could
condense like matter in the outern fields and the black dwarfes could
be the fuel and engine of the galaxy..


This does not sound like any physics or astrophysics I know about.
Hand-waving is not the same as carefully reasoned analysis.

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)


..where a gradient of concetration of gas is , there is also a rephrational deviation of light ; if the gradient is round , there is a rephrational lens ... nothing of new-one
( home exp : put 10 cm. of water into an acquarius and also 5 kg. of salt ... after two days the salt ' water shall be clear and a part of salt remains insolute on the floor ..: a laser pointer shall go through the water showing a curved beam expecially if the light is blue or green and the distance is longer than 50 cm. ... the light spot shall go out from acquarius not circular but showing a little ellipse ...)
.. the atmosphere ' rephrational lens is the reason for observing the sun a little before the rising ..and little later the sunset ..... the bending of the light is in direction of the higther rephrational ' index = concentration of gas ..
.. for many people , it seems more difficult to believe=receive=understand=keep-in-mind that , there up in the sky , there are many heavy invisible bodies (black dwarves ?) deviating the light coming from the far-space , expecially if the light has an hight frequency ...
 




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