Confederate Flag??????

Scott Hedrick wrote:

The Confederate flag is a symbol of heritage to some people.
It's a symbol of state's rights over Federal intrusion to
others. To me, anyone who waves a Confederate flag is saying
"I'm a loser" because they associate themselves with the
losing side.

To folks autographing it, it probably doesn't mean anything-
certainly not to a Russian.

So- what's the big deal?

If someone came up to you and said "I'm a big fan of yours, Mr.
Hedrick! Will you please sign my Nazi flag?" would you do it?

Jim Davis

Jim Davis wrote:
Scott Hedrick wrote:

The Confederate flag is a symbol of heritage to some people.
It's a symbol of state's rights over Federal intrusion to
others. To me, anyone who waves a Confederate flag is saying
"I'm a loser" because they associate themselves with the
losing side.

To folks autographing it, it probably doesn't mean anything-
certainly not to a Russian.

So- what's the big deal?

If someone came up to you and said "I'm a big fan of yours, Mr.
Hedrick! Will you please sign my Nazi flag?" would you do it?

Jim Davis

Of course it would be totally inappropriate to carry and sign a Nazi
flag on the ISS. Over 50-million people died due to the Axis.

How many people died due to slavery in the U.S.? At least thousands.
Maybe tens of thousands (those that died on slave ships). Millions more
suffered under slavery. I believe it was inappropriate to carry the
confederate flag on the ISS.

Now, what about a flag from a communist nation? Communism in the Soviet
Union, China and Cambodia was responsible for the deaths of millions of
people and suffering for millions more. Would it be appropriate to
carry and sign the flag of a communist nation on the ISS?

Rusty

Rusty wrote:
Jim Davis wrote:
Scott Hedrick wrote:

The Confederate flag is a symbol of heritage to some people.
It's a symbol of state's rights over Federal intrusion to
others. To me, anyone who waves a Confederate flag is saying
"I'm a loser" because they associate themselves with the
losing side.

To folks autographing it, it probably doesn't mean anything-
certainly not to a Russian.

So- what's the big deal?

If someone came up to you and said "I'm a big fan of yours, Mr.
Hedrick! Will you please sign my Nazi flag?" would you do it?

Jim Davis

Of course it would be totally inappropriate to carry and sign a Nazi
flag on the ISS. Over 50-million people died due to the Axis.

How many people died due to slavery in the U.S.? At least thousands.
Maybe tens of thousands (those that died on slave ships). Millions more
suffered under slavery. I believe it was inappropriate to carry the
confederate flag on the ISS.

Now, what about a flag from a communist nation? Communism in the Soviet
Union, China and Cambodia was responsible for the deaths of millions of
people and suffering for millions more. Would it be appropriate to
carry and sign the flag of a communist nation on the ISS?

Rusty

Hmmmm. Or what about a Bible? Or a Quran? Or pornography?
Or a blank piece of paper? Should astronauts be participating in
any such commerce?

- Ed Kyle

Well, how about signing a Soviet flag?
Suppose some Russians were autographing
hammer-and-sickle emblems for nostalgic
countryman. Can anybody put the evils
commmitted under the hammer-and-sickle
on the same level as those committed under the
Confederate battle flag? How many orders of
magnitude separate them?

"Scott Hedrick" wrote in message
.. .

wrote in message
oups.com...
Scott Hedrick wrote:
So what if they had signed Confederate flags? What's the big deal?

Unless you've been in a coma for the last 60 years, you know exactly
what the deal is.

Rusty, didn't the vast majority of those victims
suffer and die under the US flag? Aren't you
really over-over-over-simplifying the history here?
The formation of the confederacy and the war that
it sparked led directly to the END of those crimes
(not intentionally, sure, but in effect).

"Rusty" wrote
How many people died due to slavery in the U.S.? At least thousands.
Maybe tens of thousands (those that died on slave ships). Millions more
suffered under slavery. I believe it was inappropriate to carry the
confederate flag on the ISS.

Derek Lyons wrote:
"Jim Oberg" wrote:

Well, how about signing a Soviet flag? Suppose some Russians
were autographing hammer-and-sickle emblems for nostalgic countryman.
Can anybody put the evils commmitted under the hammer-and-sickle
on the same level as those committed under the Confederate battle
flag? How many orders of magnitude separate them?

The hammer-and-sickle outruns the Confederate battle flag by at
*least* an order of magnitude.

The current symbolism of the Confederate battle flag has little
to do with the Civil War, or with slavery. It has much more to
do with its appropriation as a symbol by racist groups like
the KKK, (and by other less-overt racists) etc., during the
height of the civil rights era. Ask any African American what
that flag means to them - they won't mention the Civil War.
Shelby Foote spoke about how his reverence for the flag
had been overcome by his disgust for those who had
appropriated it as a racist banner.

- Ed Kyle

On 16 Jun 2006 12:20:46 -0700, in a place far, far away,
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a
way as to indicate that:


Derek Lyons wrote:
"Jim Oberg" wrote:

Well, how about signing a Soviet flag? Suppose some Russians
were autographing hammer-and-sickle emblems for nostalgic countryman.
Can anybody put the evils commmitted under the hammer-and-sickle
on the same level as those committed under the Confederate battle
flag? How many orders of magnitude separate them?

The hammer-and-sickle outruns the Confederate battle flag by at
*least* an order of magnitude.

The current symbolism of the Confederate battle flag has little
to do with the Civil War, or with slavery. It has much more to
do with its appropriation as a symbol by racist groups like
the KKK, (and by other less-overt racists) etc., during the
height of the civil rights era. Ask any African American what
that flag means to them - they won't mention the Civil War.
Shelby Foote spoke about how his reverence for the flag
had been overcome by his disgust for those who had
appropriated it as a racist banner.

For some, there's also a significant element of southern pride,
divorced from racism (many in the south never viewed themselves as
fighting for slavery--most of the poor white soldiers didn't have, and
didn't expect to have, slaves). It's a symbol of states rights in
general, as well, but it's become tainted by the Klan to the point
that it's counterproductive to use it in this way.

wrote
The current symbolism of the Confederate battle flag has little
to do with the Civil War, or with slavery. It has much more to
do with its appropriation as a symbol by racist groups like
the KKK, (and by other less-overt racists) etc., during the
height of the civil rights era. Ask any African American what
that flag means to them - they won't mention the Civil War.
Shelby Foote spoke about how his reverence for the flag
had been overcome by his disgust for those who had
appropriated it as a racist banner.

Good point. But also recall that the flag showed
up in southern state flags, as I recall, at the
invitation of Eisenhower in advance of Civil War
centennial historical recognition. It coincided with
the growth of civil rights movements, and the rest,
sadly, is history.

A symbol can be hijacked. After all, the Nazis
appropriated the swastika from its 'good' connotations,
and it ain't NEVER going back.

Does it also apply to those who appropriate other
symbols, my favorite example being the 'peace'
cross, originally for nuclear disarmanent, but
in the 1960s the symbol of surrender to communist
conquest, enslavement, and massacre of millions
of people. So when people today wave that
symbol nostalgically, does it offend? Can it be
rebuked? Or has it come to represent bloody stupidity
in a humorous, ignorant, arrogant way?

"Rusty" wrote:

How many people died due to slavery in the U.S.? At least thousands.
Maybe tens of thousands (those that died on slave ships). Millions more
suffered under slavery. I believe it was inappropriate to carry the
confederate flag on the ISS.

Do keep in mind that, despite what the propogandists would have you
believe, that virtually all of those suffered and died not under the
stars-and-bars; but under the stars-and-stripes.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

h (Rand Simberg) wrote:

For some, there's also a significant element of southern pride,
divorced from racism (many in the south never viewed themselves as
fighting for slavery--most of the poor white soldiers didn't have, and
didn't expect to have, slaves). It's a symbol of states rights in
general, as well, but it's become tainted by the Klan to the point
that it's counterproductive to use it in this way.

Precisely Jim, precisely.

And it's sad, because it leaves many people - who believe in the
better principles of the Old South (manners, honor, behavior,
individualism, self-sufficiency, etc...) without a banner to rally
around. Our legacy has been tainted by generations of racists and
bigots (on both side of the Mason-Dixon).

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL