florida

What is the history of choice of location for KSC? I've heard that a
location inland, near Brownsville, Texas was an early candidate location.
Might have been less prone to catastrophic hurricanes (though we got blown
around pretty good there by Andrew).

"Gallery Neolithica" wrote in message
...
What is the history of choice of location for KSC? I've heard that a
location inland, near Brownsville, Texas was an early candidate location.
Might have been less prone to catastrophic hurricanes (though we got blown
around pretty good there by Andrew).

Several items dictated the choice. In fact it's ironic since Jules Verne's
Voyage to the Moon used a similar location.

For example:
No population centers downrange of the launch site. This tends to lead to
the Eastern Seaboard over a Gulf coast location.
Of course easterly rather than westerly since you get more bang for your
buck that way.
The closer to the equator you get is generally better, again, because it
increases your launch mass.
Access to ocean-going barges so that large elements (such as the Saturn V
first stage) can be easily transported.
Secure US access. This leaves out some islands.

There were other possibilities, Hawaii for example, but then you have
increased overhead of getting stuff there, etc.

And KSC is ultimately just north of the Eastern Test Range which predated
NASA.

So, with all this, Florida and thence KSC became the logical choices.

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 19:25:19 GMT, "Gallery Neolithica"
wrote:

What is the history of choice of location for KSC?

The proximity to Cape Canaveral Air Force Station and its Atlantic
Missile Range was the ultimate factor in choosing Merritt Island.
Cape Canaveral was chosen as the base for the Joint Long Range Proving
Ground ten years earlier because of its southerly, remote location and
a good selection of islands (all the way down to Ascension Island)
downrange on which to set up missile tracking stations.

I've heard that a
location inland, near Brownsville, Texas was an early candidate location.

The final two candidates were Merritt Island, Florida and Cumberland
Island, Georgia. Merritt Island ended up being considerably cheaper
than starting from scratch at Cumberland (just north of the
Florida/Georgia border) even though it had less local infrastructure.

Brian

Gallery Neolithica wrote:
What is the history of choice of location for KSC? I've heard that a
location inland, near Brownsville, Texas was an early candidate location.
Might have been less prone to catastrophic hurricanes (though we got blown
around pretty good there by Andrew).


Uh, no, not accurate. Historically the Texas coast was/is often hit by
major hurricanes, while the fact that no known hurricane has ever
directly impacted the Cape. (not to say it will never happen, only that
it hasn't, yet) That and the fact the Govt. was easily able to procure
(steal) all the land needed from the indigenous family/farmers made it a
no brainer...The fact that Saturn 5 was not the largest launch vehicle
on the drawing board (Nova) swung the deal easily...In the end KSC wound
up with over twice the land they need and control it all via the
National Wildlife refuge sham,. Oh well.....
T3

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 20:33:18 GMT, T3 wrote:

That and the fact the Govt. was easily able to procure
(steal) all the land needed from the indigenous family/farmers made it a
no brainer...

The government didn't steal it, the landowners were actually paid a
fair market value. My grandfather (who moved to Rockledge in 1938)
once owned land on northern Merritt Island in what is now part of
Kennedy Space Center. He sold it to other citrus growers in the late
1940s or early 1950s. The landowners at the time generally weren't Ma
and Pa Kettle who got hoodwinked by the government, they were fairly
large citrus companies... names still seen in the area today like
Harvey and Sullivan.

This was Florida, pre-Air Conditioning and pre-Mosquito Control,
remember. Condominiums and high-rise hotels were not even dreamed of
outside of Miami. When the government inquired about purchasing the
land, the owners' responses were generally "How soon can we sell it to
you?"

Brian

"T3" wrote in message
. ..
while the fact that no known hurricane has ever
directly impacted the Cape.

Sure it has- the eye passed right over the Titan pad. Didn't you see
"Marooned"????

On 2004-09-28, Brian Thorn wrote:
On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 20:33:18 GMT, T3 wrote:

That and the fact the Govt. was easily able to procure
(steal) all the land needed from the indigenous family/farmers made it a
no brainer...

The government didn't steal it, the landowners were actually paid a
fair market value. My grandfather (who moved to Rockledge in 1938)
once owned land on northern Merritt Island in what is now part of
Kennedy Space Center. He sold it to other citrus growers in the late
1940s or early 1950s. The landowners at the time generally weren't Ma
and Pa Kettle who got hoodwinked by the government, they were fairly
large citrus companies... names still seen in the area today like
Harvey and Sullivan.

There's some interesting coverage in Moonport; mostly in Chapter 5, I
think.

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/Hi.../contents.html

--
-Andrew Gray

Brian Thorn wrote:
On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 20:33:18 GMT, T3 wrote:


That and the fact the Govt. was easily able to procure
(steal) all the land needed from the indigenous family/farmers made it a
no brainer...


The government didn't steal it, the landowners were actually paid a
fair market value. My grandfather (who moved to Rockledge in 1938)
once owned land on northern Merritt Island in what is now part of
Kennedy Space Center. He sold it to other citrus growers in the late
1940s or early 1950s. The landowners at the time generally weren't Ma
and Pa Kettle who got hoodwinked by the government, they were fairly
large citrus companies... names still seen in the area today like
Harvey and Sullivan.

This was Florida, pre-Air Conditioning and pre-Mosquito Control,
remember. Condominiums and high-rise hotels were not even dreamed of
outside of Miami. When the government inquired about purchasing the
land, the owners' responses were generally "How soon can we sell it to
you?"

Brian
I do remember, the late 50's on anyway, mosquitoes mostly but there were
also some really nice places that were gobbled up also and in the end
they didn't need to be. There were some absolutely beautiful "cracker"
style homes on the "fingers" south and north of Hallover as well as some
trick spots on Banana creek. I thought they were as close to paradise as
you could come, in Fl. anyway. Harvey, Sullivan, don't forget Nevins,
Dal'Bora or Pollichicio. (please forgive feeble attempt at correct
spelling) When I go back, which is almost daily, I remember slogging
through the swamps duck hunting, trout, redfish, snook and all the
shrimp all you could carry. Not to mention the manicured groves, I know,
things change, I have for sure. I lived my first 15 years without A/C,
nowadays I'd seriously consider suicide or moving if I had to live here
without it! I guess I should be thankful that there are no Condo's on
Playalinda yet.
You're correct, a lot of that property was owned by corps. but they got
sweetheart deals to keep farming the groves which was all they cared
about to begin with. However, there were some families that had been in
that area for quite a while and had no wish to move, in fact, a few
fought it, to no avail...
Pre-mosquito control, oh yeah! I was at a reunion of sorts a while back
at Karr's on M.I., people were slapping and swatting, I overheard
someone saying that the mosquitoes were "real bad" that evening, I just
rolled my eyes and said, "you have no idea what bad is."
Regards,
T

"T3" wrote in message
. ..
Gallery Neolithica wrote:
What is the history of choice of location for KSC? I've heard that a
location inland, near Brownsville, Texas was an early candidate
location.
Might have been less prone to catastrophic hurricanes (though we got
blown
around pretty good there by Andrew).


Uh, no, not accurate. Historically the Texas coast was/is often hit by
major hurricanes, while the fact that no known hurricane has ever
directly impacted the Cape.

You realize you've just compared an entire state's coastline with one small
area of Florida. Not really a fair comparision. :-)

(not to say it will never happen, only that
it hasn't, yet) That and the fact the Govt. was easily able to procure
(steal) all the land needed from the indigenous family/farmers made it a
no brainer...

The land in Texas wasn't all that expensive either.

The fact that Saturn 5 was not the largest launch vehicle
on the drawing board (Nova) swung the deal easily...In the end KSC wound
up with over twice the land they need and control it all via the
National Wildlife refuge sham,. Oh well.....

I beleive the NWR was formed in 63, two years after the land for KSC was
acquired.


T3

Greg D. Moore (Strider) wrote:
"T3" wrote in message
. ..

Gallery Neolithica wrote:

What is the history of choice of location for KSC? I've heard that a
location inland, near Brownsville, Texas was an early candidate

location.

Might have been less prone to catastrophic hurricanes (though we got

blown

around pretty good there by Andrew).



Uh, no, not accurate. Historically the Texas coast was/is often hit by
major hurricanes, while the fact that no known hurricane has ever
directly impacted the Cape.


You realize you've just compared an entire state's coastline with one small
area of Florida. Not really a fair comparision. :-)
That wasn't my intention...I was responding to."I've heard that a
location inland, near Brownsville, Texas was an early candidate
location. Might have been less prone to catastrophic hurricanes."
And it isn't, historically(last hundred years or so) Texas/Brownsville
has had more than it's share of major storms and a couple were
catastrophic. Though I don't really think Hurricanes were of much
concern at the time. They are today because of the infrastructure needed
to do whatever it is NASA decides to do...

The land in Texas wasn't all that expensive either.
I'm sure it wasn't but the proximity to the border was probably a
concern remember, KSC started out as Air Force Eastern Missile test
Range, actually I think it still is, or parts of it anyway. If Johnson
had gotten in office earlier more than likely, all of it would've ended
up in Texas...


The fact that Saturn 5 was not the largest launch vehicle
on the drawing board (Nova) swung the deal easily...In the end KSC wound
up with over twice the land they need and control it all via the
National Wildlife refuge sham,. Oh well.....


I beleive the NWR was formed in 63, two years after the land for KSC was
acquired.



Something like that, the Feds. took it out of one pocket and put it in
the other. IIRC and believe me, I'm not really sure I do,
Cruckshank(spelling thing again)and Co.(Audubon society) pushed the
refuge deal. They had to do something with all that property besides
breed mosquitoes, rattlesnakes and alligators! In fact they use to
count birds out there around Christmas time, maybe they still do, I
dunno. One time a couple of my Jr.High buddies and I were blasting away
at the Pintails and Wigeon, which I'm sure that annoyed the hell out of
the Audubon people. Anyway, someone bagged a duck we'd never seen
before, so on leaving, we thought we'd ask the "bird people" if they had
any idea what it was. I thought the Ol boy was gonna "stroke out" on the
spot, turns out it was some kind of Mexican tree duck, pretty rare on
the East Coast of Fl. I always wondered if they counted that one?
Regards,
T3
BTW- anecdote and feeble attempt at humor, in no way meant to slight the
outstanding work the Cruckshank family or the Audubon society have done
in the area. CYA.....