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Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?

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Old October 17th 02, 11:42 PM
Paul R. Mays
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Default Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?

"Double-A" wrote in message
DrPostman wrote in message

. ..
On 16 Oct 2003 04:47:24 -0700, (Double-A) wrote:

Ed Conrad wrote in message

. ..
On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 14:00:21 +0100, Doug Weller
wrote in response
to the question:




Which archaeologists date to this era, not even B.C.E.

Mainstream archaeologists would say that's true. But other
archaeologists have speculated that it is far older, anywhere from 13
to 40 thousand years old.

The interesting thing about it is that was apparently a port, with
remnants of docks still extant. But Lake Titicaca is almost 10 miles
away. The ruins are also about 2 miles above sea level. Was the city
a port on the lake when the water was higher? The odd thing is that
in recent years, investigating Indian legends of structures beneath
the lake, explorers have found the ruins of stone buildings deep under
the surface of the lake, that are similar to the above ground ruins.
Had the civilization existed in the region before the lake? Then why
was it a port? Was it on the ocean?

If it was an ocean port, then it couldn't have been built within the
last couple of thousand years because the upward thrust of the Andes
Mountains has not been that rapid. But 13,000 years ago? Possibly.

Also, consider how a city with such large stone blocks could have been
built in the thin air of an altitude of 2 miles high. It seems much
more reasonable to suppose it was built many thousands of years ago
when it would have been at a lower altitude.


Also the temple at the center has a astronomical aspects in that
the setting sun of equinox sets at the markers from the perspective
of the alter stone.. but today there's about a 16deg off center of each
marker post.. But if you consider precession and back through the
time line to about 15~20 k years ago they line up prefect.. the only
time they will line up in mans history.....

And no one has come back with a response on the mapping
of the Giza pyramids and the relation to the Orion constellation.

If the pyramids were laid out at the same time to match the
Orion Constellation then the existing theory for the building
of all the pyramids is not valid...

Paul R. Mays
Some where within the Quantum State

"Subject: Dslyecixs taek haret

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at an Elingsh
uinervtisy, it deson't mttaer in waht oredr
the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt
tihng is taht frist and lsat ltteer is at the
rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and
you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is
bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteetr by it slef
but the wrod as a wlohe."
---- Atuehr Uknwon

Old October 18th 02, 07:27 AM
Paul R. Mays
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Posts: n/a
Default Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?

wrote in message ...
In sci.astro Rich wrote:

If electricity exists, why the need to research it?

It's existence has always been apparent to anyone who's seen
a thunderstorm. The existence of ESP has not been so clearly
established. I don't see that statistical methods prove anything,
as if it works as promised it should work every time. Stats
tell you somthing about a group, idiot ESP researchers apply
stats to events and draw unsupported conclusions. Stats are not
predictive and tell nothing about any event, and they cannot
even in principle.

If electricity works then it should work every time! Can you
predict for me where lightening will strike? Are you going
to claim some bogus statistical methods to "prove" lightening
exists? Those idiot meteorologists keep drawing all these
unsuported conclusions that can't be predicted and verified
and tell nothing about any given electrical event. Why would
anyone waste time studying this tripe? Luckily you've got
me here to debunk electricity for you!

I don't think he understands your position any more than
he did mine.. Its not the point whether I believe in UFO's
, Atlantis, Green men on mars or deities on mountain high...

Its the quest for answers to the anomalous that is the
heart of science.. I have no beliefs, I don't even
believe I exist.... I know, I think I know or I don't know...
I don't have no B'Leaf's....

I am fully aware of most of the existing theories to some extent
or another and the models that work are nice to have about ...

But... ( Love Butt's)
There's a massive amount of Evidence that is available to
many weird and wondrous things in this old, huge and
amazing universe that us tiny, young fungus covering this
tiny ball have yet to learn all the rules of.... That's science...
the quest for the rules yet to be defined of a reality that was here
billions of years before we were here to observe it and will
be here billions of years after our last radio message is lost
to the ambient noise.

Can you demonstrate unequivocally that ESP exists?

Can you demonstrate unequivocally that YOU exist?

But of course you totally miss the point. You are so
busy denying and "debunking" that you can't figure
out the the whole point of an investigation is to
FIND OUT what is true and what isn't. You on the other
hand want to start from you dogma and then deny that
any other intepretation might exist. As I stated
before you are exactly what I'm ranting about.

Atlantis != Archeology, no matter how often you confuse them.

Proof by assertion! Always a winner in my book!

It comes out really close to "Nah na na nah na nah"

Can you prove that Atlantis existed? Where is/was it?

Can you prove it never existed? I mean uneqivocally?
Go ahead prove that negative! Because that's what you'll
have to do to demonstrate that any investigation of
the possiblity of Atlantis is a waste of time.

So ad hominem is all you got. How shocking that is.

It's not all I've got, but I say one ad hominem deserves

I'll see you both 2 ad hominem's and raise you 1 analogy....

Do you believe that this is how ET communicates? Please answer
yes or no. If you have some other observations on the meaning of
cattle mutilations, please elucidate.

Why is it that in your book it always comes down to belief?
Why is science religion to you? Why is it a matter of faith
rather than observations. What exactly is your point here?
That since we don't have a lot of data what is causing
the phenomena we should ignore it? Or perhaps you are
debunking the whole idea of cattle mutilations. You still
haven't answered if YOU believe if they actually exist.
"Belief" IS a valid question for you since this is a matter
of your faith.

Do you believe
that there is nothing about crop circles that can't be
"explained" by a bunch of kids stomping in a wheat field?

Do you believe that this is how ET communicates? Please answer
yes or no.

Please answer my question first.

Sounds like the bag is working!

I'm waiting for "Say.. Halla Lu Ya!!!"

More ad hominem, and more unanswered questions. How shocking.

It's not ad hominem if the comments are demonstrably true
and relevant to the issue.

You seem a true believer yourself dude. How can the superstitious
cast aspersion on man for being superstitious? It boggles the mind.

What boggles the mind is how a person who operates totally on
superstition projects that mindset onto others and then
criticizes them for that projection being like themselves.
Did you get that?

Where are the foo-fighters today?

Dood! They got PLENTY of gigs!

Some kind of scientist he is... They were here last spring
and were witnessed by at least 20,000 ... ( but I really
would count on many remembering much of the night)

Gota to do ya research....


Due to SPAM innundation above address is turned off!

Paul R. Mays
Some where within the Quantum State

"Physics is experience, arranged in economical order."
Ernst Mach

Old October 19th 02, 12:40 AM
Paul R. Mays
external usenet poster
Posts: n/a
Default Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?

"John Tapper" wrote in message
Is there a civilization that exists now? And if yes, how civilized are
they on a scale of 1 to 10?

10 being what?

Colonizing other worlds? living permanently in space? has flush toilets?

Need to know what the conceptual idea of the ultimate evolution of man
to answer that with any accuracy.

We are somewhere between a bacterium and a space fairing, colonizing
race of people scattered over billions of star systems...


Paul R. Mays
Some where within the Quantum State

"Science commits suicide when it adopts a creed."
- Thomas Henry Huxley

Old October 22nd 02, 05:49 AM
Paul R. Mays
external usenet poster
Posts: n/a
Default Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?

"Carl R. Osterwald" wrote in message
In article , Volker Hetzer

"Carl R. Osterwald" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
In article ,


In sci.astro Volker Hetzer wrote:

schrieb im Newsbeitrag
In sci.astro Rich wrote:
Stats are not predictive and tell nothing about any event,
and they cannot even in principle.

Let me add that this statement by Rich, the debunker, in fact says
that he totally rejects modern quantum mechanics! Now I personally
(as well as Einstein) DO believe that quantum mechanics NEEDS

I like to call it the "science of ignornace"!

You should take a few undergraduate physics courses prior to exposing
yourself with statements like this one.

Just for the record, I didn't say any of the stuff quoted above. Maybe

should get their quoting right.

I apologize if the attribution came out wrong, but I think everyone
understood that this jacoby person is advocating that QM is bunk.

He did not say at any point that QM is Bunk!!! He's not advocating it,
saying it, B'leaving it or any think of the like.....

He said QM needs Debunking... I say SR needs debunking... GR needs
Debunking, All of science in every varied field needs debunking....

Look at that and try to get his and my point... At no point did he make any
claims one way or the other he stated the one thing that should be done
to any data... Debunk it to either Life or death... Never let it just be
someone told you how to think about it....


Paul R. Mays
Some where within the Quantum State

"All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed
Second, it is violently opposed
Third, it is accepted as self-evident."
- Arthur Schopenhauer

Old October 22nd 02, 09:01 AM
Paul R. Mays
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Posts: n/a
Default Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?


Old October 22nd 02, 09:13 AM
Paul R. Mays
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Posts: n/a
Default Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?

From The Front Page of THE PHOENIX GAZETTE of April 5th, 1909

The latest news of the progress of the explorations of what is now regarded
by scientists as not only the oldest archeological discovery in the United
States, but one of the most valuable in the world, which was mentioned some
time ago in the Gazette, was brought to the city yesterday by G.E. Kinkaid,
the explorer who found the great underground citadel of the Grand Canyon
during a trip from Green River, Wyoming, down the Colorado, in a wooden
boat, to Yuma, several months ago.

According to the story related to the Gazette by Mr. Kinkaid, the
archaelogists of the Smithsonian Institute, which is financing the
expeditions, have made discoveries which almost conclusively prove that the
race which inhabited this mysterious cavern, hewn in solid rock by human
hands, was of oriental origin, possibly from Egypt, tracing back to Ramses.
If their theories are borne out by the translation of the tablets engraved
with heiroglyphics, the mystery of the prehistoric peoples of North America,
their ancient arts, who they were and whence they came, will be solved.
Egypt and the Nile, and Arizona and the Colorado will be linked by a
historical chain running back to ages which staggers the wildest fancy of
the fictionist.

A Thorough Examination

Under the direction of Prof. S. A. Jordan, the Smithsonian Institute is now
prosecuting the most thorough explorations, which will be continued until
the last link in the chain is forged. Nearly a mile underground, about 1480
feet below the surface, the long main passage has been delved into, to find
another mammoth chamber from which radiates scores of passageways, like the
spokes of a wheel.

Several hundred rooms have been discovered, reached by passageways running
from the main passage, one of them having been explored for 854 feet and
another 634 feet. The recent finds include articles which have never been
known as native to this country, and doubtless they had their origin in the
orient. War weapons, copper instruments, sharp-edged and hard as steel,
indicate the high state of civilization reached by these strange people. So
interested have the scientists become that preparations are being made to
equip the camp for extensive studies, and the force will be increased to
thirty or forty persons.

Mr. Kinkaid's Report

Mr. Kinkaid was the first white child born in Idaho and has been an explorer
and hunter all his life, thirty years having been in the service of the
Smithsonian Institute. Even briefly recounted, his history sounds fabulous,
almost grotesque.

"First, I would impress that the cavern is nearly inaccessible. The entrance
is 1,486 feet down the sheer canyon wall. It is located on government land
and no visitor will be allowed there under penalty of trespass. The
scientists wish to work unmolested, without fear of archeological
discoveries being disturbed by curio or relic hunters. A trip there would be
fruitless, and the visitor would be sent on his way. The story of how I
found the cavern has been related, but in a paragraph: I was journeying down
the Colorado river in a boat, alone, looking for mineral. Some forty-two
miles up the river from the El Tovar Crystal canyon, I saw on the east wall,
stains in the sedimentary formation about 2,000 feet above the river bed.
There was no trail to this point, but I finally reached it with great

Above a shelf which hid it from view from the river, was the mouth of the
cave. There are steps leading from this entrance some thirty yards to what
was, at the time the cavern was inhabited, the level of the river. When I
saw the chisel marks on the wall inside the entrance, I became interested,
securing my gun and went in. During that trip I went back several hundred
feet along the main passage till I came to the crypt in which I discovered
the mummies. One of these I stood up and photographed by flashlight. I
gathered a number of relics, which I carried down the Colorado to Yuma, from
whence I shipped them to Washington with details of the discovery. Following
this, the explorations were undertaken.

The Passages

"The main passageway is about 12 feet wide, narrowing to nine feet toward
the farther end. About 57 feet from the entrance, the first side-passages
branch off to the right and left, along which, on both sides, are a number
of rooms about the size of ordinary living rooms of today, though some are
30 by 40 feet square. These are entered by oval-shaped doors and are
ventilated by round air spaces through the walls into the passages. The
walls are about three feet six inches in thickness.

The passages are chiseled or hewn as straight as could be laid out by an
engineer. The ceilings of many of the rooms converge to a center. The
side-passages near the entrance run at a sharp angle from the main hall, but
toward the rear they gradually reach a right angle in direction.

The Shrine

"Over a hundred feet from the entrance is the cross-hall, several hundred
feet long, in which are found the idol, or image, of the people's god,
sitting cross-legged, with a lotus flower or lily in each hand. The cast of
the face is oriental, and the carving this cavern. The idol almost resembles
Buddha, though the scientists are not certain as to what religious worship
it represents. Taking into consideration everything found thus far, it is
possible that this worship most resembles the ancient people of Tibet.

Surrounding this idol are smaller images, some very beautiful in form;
others crooked-necked and distorted shapes, symbolical, probably, of good
and evil. There are two large cactus with protruding arms, one on each side
of the dais on which the god squats. All this is carved out of hard rock
resembling marble. In the opposite corner of this cross-hall were found
tools of all descriptions, made of copper. These people undoubtedly knew the
lost art of hardening this metal, which has been sought by chemicals for
centureis without result. On a bench running around the workroom was some
charcoal and other material probably used in the process. There is also slag
and stuff similar to matte, showing that these ancients smelted ores, but so
far no trace of where or how this was done has been discovered, nor the
origin of the ore.

"Among the other finds are vases or urns and cups of copper and gold, made
very artistic in design. The pottery work includes enameled ware and glazed
vessels. Another passageway leads to granaries such as are found in the
oriental temples. They contain seeds of varous kinds. One very large
storehouse has not yet been entered, as it is twelve feet high and can be
reached only from above. Two copper hooks extend on the edge, which
indicates that some sort of ladder was attached. These granaries are
rounded, as the materials of which they are constructed, I think, is a ver
hard cement. A gray metal is also found in this cavern, which puzzles the
scientists, for its identity has not been established. It resembles
platinum. Strewn promiscuously over the floor everywhere are what people
call "cats eyse', a yellow stone of no great value. Each one is engraved
with the head of the Malay type.

The Hieroglyphics

"On all the urns, or walls over doorways , and tablets of stone which were
found by the image are the mysterious hieroglyphics, the key to which the
Smithsonian Institute hopes yet to discover. The engraving on the tables
probably has something to do with the religion of the people. Similar
hieroglyphics have been found in southern Arizona. Among the pictorial
writings, only two animals are found. One is of prehistoric type.

The Crypt

"The tomb or crypt in which the mummies were found is one of the largest of
the chambers, the walls slanting back at an angle of about 35 degrees. On
these are tiers of mummies, each one occupying a separate hewn shelf. At the
head of each is a small bench, on which is found copper cups and pieces of
broken swords. Some of the mummies are covered with clay, and all are
wrapped in a bark fabric.

The urns or cups on the lower tiers are crude, while as the higher shelves
are reached, the urns are finer in design, showing a later stage of
civilization. It is worthy of note that all the mummies examined so far have
proved to be male, no children or females being buried here. This leads to
the belief that this exterior section was the warriors' barracks.

"Among the discoveries no bones of animals have been found, no skins, no
clothing, no bedding. Many of the rooms are bare but for water vessels. One
room, about 40 by 700 feet, was probably the main dining hall, for cooking
utensils are found here. What these people lived on is a problem, though it
is presumed that they came south in the winter and farmed in the valleys,
going back north in the summer.

Upwards of 50,000 people could have lived in the caverns comfortably. One
theory is that the present Indian tribes found in Arizona are descendants of
the serfs or slaves of the people which inhabited the cave. Undoubtedly a
good many thousands of years before the Christian era, a people lived here
which reached a high stage of civilization. The chronology of human history
is full of gaps. Professor Jordan is much enthused over the discoveries and
believes that the find will prove of incalculable value in archeological

"One thing I have not spoken of, may be of interest. There is one chamber of
the passageway to which is not ventilated, and when we approached it a
deadly, snaky smell struck us. Our light would not penetrate the gloom, and
until stronger ones are available we will not know what the chamber
contains. Some say snakes, but other boo-hoo this idea and think it may
contain a deadly gas or chemicals used by the ancients. No sounds are heard,
but it smells snaky just the same. The whole underground installation gives
one of shaky nerves the creeps. The gloom is like a weight on one's
shoulders, and our flashlights and candles only make the darkness blacker.
Imagination can revel in conjectures and ungodly daydreams back through the
ages that have elapsed till the mind reels dizzily in space."

An Indian Legend

In connection with this story, it is notable that among the Hopi Indians the
tradition is told that their ancestors once lived in an underworld in the
Grand Canyon till dissension arose between the good and the bad, the people
of one heart and the people of two hearts. Machetto, who was their chief,
counseled them to leave the underworld, but there was no way out. The chief
then caused a tree to grow up and pierce the roof of the underworld, and
then the people of one heart climbed out. They tarried by Paisisvai (Red
River), which is the Colorado, and grew grain and corn.

They sent out a message to the Temple of the Sun, asking the blessing of
peace, good will and rain for people of one heart. That messenger never
returned, but today at the Hopi villages at sundown can be seen the old men
of the tribe out on the housetops gazing toward the sun, looking for the
messenger. When he returns, their lands and ancient dwelling place will be
restored to them. That is the tradition.

Among the engravings of animals in the cave is seen the image of a heart
over the spot where it is located. The legend was learned by W.E. Rollins,
the artist, during a year spent with the Hopi Indians.

There are two theories of the origin of the Egyptians.

One is that they came from Asia; another that the racial cradle was in the
upper Nile region. Heeren, an Egyptologist, believed in the Indian origin of
the Egyptians. The discoveries in the Grand Canyon may throw further light
on human evolution and prehistoric ages.

Old October 22nd 02, 09:22 AM
Paul R. Mays
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Default Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?


Old October 22nd 02, 09:47 AM
Paul R. Mays
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Default Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?


Old October 22nd 02, 09:49 AM
Paul R. Mays
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Default Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?


Old October 22nd 02, 08:05 PM
Paul R. Mays
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Default Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?

"Rich" wrote in message

Rick Sobie replied:
In article ,


Rick Sobie replied:

"Rich" wrote in message


In sci.astro Rich wrote:

Show us the evidence. Is that too much to ask?

Yes, it is too much to ask!


You want proof?
You can't handle the proof.


Can you?


That is a stretch if you ask me.

As opposed to what exactly?

And what part do you find wanting?

They are clearly flying machines.

Are they? You don't consider flying machines a stretch?

The explanations by Dr. Zahi Hawass are just as bad. He said "they
are just childrens' toys, that's all, nothing to see there at all,
LOOK! over there, why that looks like the grave of a cook! Come
people, let us look over there!" or similar.

Funny, I read these words in the link above...

If the ancient Egyptians had vehicles such as helicopters,
submarines, and jet airplanes, one would expect to find some
evidence of this other than in a single inscription on the
lintel of a single temple. This type of large machinery
requires a vast amount of support (including fuel, parts,
factories, etc.) but there is no trace of any such support
in all of Egypt. The Egyptian literature is also bereft of
any boast, much less passing mention, of advanced aircraft.
Obviously this situation doesn't seem peculiar to those who
really want to believe that the ancient Egyptians flew around
in airplanes.

Seems reasonable to me. You disagree I assume. If so explain why.

Why is it so difficult for some people to grasp that there may be
more to history than we are taught in school?

The issue is not a generality, but something specific you posted.

Have you seen the underwater ruins off Japan?

No, have you?

Clearly carved steps,
and post holes. Unless you believe that parrot fish routinely
carve gigantic sets of stairs to trim their beaks or something.

No, he's a clown fish and the damage was done when the mines went off.

I mean honestly, the expanations are ludicrous.

Yours are at any rate. You won't address any reasonable response and
immediately cast aspersions on anyone just asking questions.

Here, quite simply I will show you that there are mysteries in this
world which the general public are not permitted to see.

Let's handle one at a time.

Is the entire basis for your claim that the ancient egyptians had
flying machines a single glyph in one and only one temple?

Actually there was also found inside a tomb that dated to
the old kingdom period where Two small gold modles of Jet
Aircraft were found. One having a Delta Wing and vertical
stabilizer and one having swept wings. And a wood version found
that dates to 200 BC.


So your one and only one example is a bit faulty...

And a place to test Fly?


Plenty of evidence for anyone who is willing to look.

OK, let's do just that, look at it.

Do you believe that the Egyptian's had heavier than air flying machines
and left one single reference to them in one single location? Oddly I
don't recall any part of Egyptian history in which they were so humble.
And I find it odd that they never once used said flying machines in any
of the many wars they fought, even for reconnaissance, or that their

or friends made no mention of them in any of their writings.




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