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Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 19th 07, 08:07 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
Rand Simberg[_1_]
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Posts: 8,311
Default Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?

On not making messes in space? My dim understanding is that this
remains unsettled in the Liability Convention, due to an inability to
agree on a definition of the word "debris." Any space lawyers out
there more up to date?

I'd think that, at a minimum, if any of the bits strike someone's
satellite, or ISS, that the Chinese could be held liable under the
OST. If it could be proven that it resulted from this event, that is
(probably a difficult thing to do).
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  #2  
Old January 19th 07, 08:14 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
ed kyle
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Posts: 276
Default Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?

Rand Simberg wrote:
On not making messes in space? My dim understanding is that this
remains unsettled in the Liability Convention, due to an inability to
agree on a definition of the word "debris." Any space lawyers out
there more up to date?

I'd think that, at a minimum, if any of the bits strike someone's
satellite, or ISS, that the Chinese could be held liable under the
OST. If it could be proven that it resulted from this event, that is
(probably a difficult thing to do).


They wouldn't be any more liable than the U.S. for the two Delta
stages that fragmented and created clouds of debris in LEO last
year. Or Japan for its H-2A upper stage that blew up last year.
Or Russia, which blew up a Kosmos satellite in LEO late last
year.

I don't see a treaty issue, unless it was China trying to get the
U.S. to agree to negotiate a no-arms-in-space treaty with it and
Russia as it has called for in the past.

- Ed Kyle

  #3  
Old January 19th 07, 08:40 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
Rand Simberg[_1_]
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Posts: 8,311
Default Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?

On 19 Jan 2007 12:14:14 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Ed Kyle"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a
way as to indicate that:

Rand Simberg wrote:
On not making messes in space? My dim understanding is that this
remains unsettled in the Liability Convention, due to an inability to
agree on a definition of the word "debris." Any space lawyers out
there more up to date?

I'd think that, at a minimum, if any of the bits strike someone's
satellite, or ISS, that the Chinese could be held liable under the
OST. If it could be proven that it resulted from this event, that is
(probably a difficult thing to do).


They wouldn't be any more liable than the U.S. for the two Delta
stages that fragmented and created clouds of debris in LEO last
year. Or Japan for its H-2A upper stage that blew up last year.
Or Russia, which blew up a Kosmos satellite in LEO late last
year.


It's interesting that there's no distinction made between accidents
and a deliberate act.
  #4  
Old January 19th 07, 08:42 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
Rand Simberg[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,311
Default Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?

On 19 Jan 2007 12:14:14 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Ed Kyle"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a
way as to indicate that:

Rand Simberg wrote:
On not making messes in space? My dim understanding is that this
remains unsettled in the Liability Convention, due to an inability to
agree on a definition of the word "debris." Any space lawyers out
there more up to date?

I'd think that, at a minimum, if any of the bits strike someone's
satellite, or ISS, that the Chinese could be held liable under the
OST. If it could be proven that it resulted from this event, that is
(probably a difficult thing to do).


They wouldn't be any more liable than the U.S. for the two Delta
stages that fragmented and created clouds of debris in LEO last
year. Or Japan for its H-2A upper stage that blew up last year.
Or Russia, which blew up a Kosmos satellite in LEO late last
year.


Did any of those incidents result in damage to a third party?
  #5  
Old January 19th 07, 09:35 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
ed kyle
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Posts: 276
Default Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?


Rand Simberg wrote:
On 19 Jan 2007 12:14:14 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Ed Kyle"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a
way as to indicate that:

Rand Simberg wrote:
On not making messes in space? My dim understanding is that this
remains unsettled in the Liability Convention, due to an inability to
agree on a definition of the word "debris." Any space lawyers out
there more up to date?

I'd think that, at a minimum, if any of the bits strike someone's
satellite, or ISS, that the Chinese could be held liable under the
OST. If it could be proven that it resulted from this event, that is
(probably a difficult thing to do).


They wouldn't be any more liable than the U.S. for the two Delta
stages that fragmented and created clouds of debris in LEO last
year. Or Japan for its H-2A upper stage that blew up last year.
Or Russia, which blew up a Kosmos satellite in LEO late last
year.


It's interesting that there's no distinction made between accidents
and a deliberate act.


I think the liability would be the same either way.

- Ed Kyle

  #6  
Old January 19th 07, 09:36 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
ed kyle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 276
Default Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?


Rand Simberg wrote:
On 19 Jan 2007 12:14:14 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Ed Kyle"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a
way as to indicate that:

Rand Simberg wrote:
On not making messes in space? My dim understanding is that this
remains unsettled in the Liability Convention, due to an inability to
agree on a definition of the word "debris." Any space lawyers out
there more up to date?

I'd think that, at a minimum, if any of the bits strike someone's
satellite, or ISS, that the Chinese could be held liable under the
OST. If it could be proven that it resulted from this event, that is
(probably a difficult thing to do).


They wouldn't be any more liable than the U.S. for the two Delta
stages that fragmented and created clouds of debris in LEO last
year. Or Japan for its H-2A upper stage that blew up last year.
Or Russia, which blew up a Kosmos satellite in LEO late last
year.


Did any of those incidents result in damage to a third party?


Not yet, but then neither has the broken up Chinese satellite.

- Ed Kyle

  #7  
Old January 19th 07, 09:39 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
Rand Simberg[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,311
Default Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?

On 19 Jan 2007 13:35:31 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Ed Kyle"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a
way as to indicate that:

They wouldn't be any more liable than the U.S. for the two Delta
stages that fragmented and created clouds of debris in LEO last
year. Or Japan for its H-2A upper stage that blew up last year.
Or Russia, which blew up a Kosmos satellite in LEO late last
year.


It's interesting that there's no distinction made between accidents
and a deliberate act.


I think the liability would be the same either way.


Yes, but as I said, it's interesting. In a civil case, a deliberate
act would carry a higher penalty, perhaps with punitive damages.
  #8  
Old January 19th 07, 09:40 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
Rand Simberg[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,311
Default Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?

On 19 Jan 2007 13:36:49 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Ed Kyle"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a
way as to indicate that:


Rand Simberg wrote:
On 19 Jan 2007 12:14:14 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Ed Kyle"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a
way as to indicate that:

Rand Simberg wrote:
On not making messes in space? My dim understanding is that this
remains unsettled in the Liability Convention, due to an inability to
agree on a definition of the word "debris." Any space lawyers out
there more up to date?

I'd think that, at a minimum, if any of the bits strike someone's
satellite, or ISS, that the Chinese could be held liable under the
OST. If it could be proven that it resulted from this event, that is
(probably a difficult thing to do).

They wouldn't be any more liable than the U.S. for the two Delta
stages that fragmented and created clouds of debris in LEO last
year. Or Japan for its H-2A upper stage that blew up last year.
Or Russia, which blew up a Kosmos satellite in LEO late last
year.


Did any of those incidents result in damage to a third party?


Not yet, but then neither has the broken up Chinese satellite.


That's why I wrote "if any of the bits strike someone's satellite, or
ISS." We know that's not going to occur with any of the other cases
you mentioned. It still may for this one.
  #9  
Old January 19th 07, 09:43 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
Herb Schaltegger
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Posts: 315
Default Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?

On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 15:39:39 -0600, Rand Simberg wrote
(in article ):

On 19 Jan 2007 13:35:31 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Ed Kyle"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a
way as to indicate that:

They wouldn't be any more liable than the U.S. for the two Delta
stages that fragmented and created clouds of debris in LEO last
year. Or Japan for its H-2A upper stage that blew up last year.
Or Russia, which blew up a Kosmos satellite in LEO late last
year.

It's interesting that there's no distinction made between accidents
and a deliberate act.


I think the liability would be the same either way.


Yes, but as I said, it's interesting. In a civil case, a deliberate
act would carry a higher penalty, perhaps with punitive damages.


Don't play lawyer, Rand. In civil cases, the factors to be considered in
awarding punitive damages vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and the
intent of the actor is but one factor to consider.


--
You can run on for a long time,
Sooner or later, God'll cut you down.
~Johnny Cash

  #10  
Old January 19th 07, 09:50 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
Rand Simberg[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,311
Default Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?

On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 15:43:29 -0600, in a place far, far away, Herb
Schaltegger made the phosphor on
my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:

It's interesting that there's no distinction made between accidents
and a deliberate act.

I think the liability would be the same either way.


Yes, but as I said, it's interesting. In a civil case, a deliberate
act would carry a higher penalty, perhaps with punitive damages.


Don't play lawyer, Rand. In civil cases, the factors to be considered in
awarding punitive damages vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and the
intent of the actor is but one factor to consider.


rolling eyes

OK, make "would," "could."

Talk about "playing lawyer."

Anyway, I thought I was in your killfile.
 




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