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Problem in design of $100 billion dollar moon rocket



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 20th 08, 10:23 PM posted to alt.politics.bush,sci.space.policy,sci.environment,sci.physics
kT
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,032
Default Problem in design of $100 billion dollar moon rocket

Harry Hope wrote:

The space agency has been working on a plan to return to the Moon, at
a cost of more than $100 billion, since 2005.


http://www.hindu.com/2008/01/21/stor...2155291500.htm

Jan 21, 2008

WASHINGTON:

NASA is wrestling with a potentially dangerous problem in a
spacecraft, this time in a Moon rocket that has not even been built
yet.

Engineers are concerned that the rocket meant to replace the space
shuttle and send astronauts on their way to the Moon could shake
violently during the first few minutes of flight, possibly destroying
the entire vehicle.

“They know it’s a real problem,” said Carnegie Mellon University
engineering professor Paul Fischbeck, who has consulted on risk issues
with NASA in the past.

“This thing is going to shake apart the whole structure, and they’ve
got to solve it.”

If not corrected, the shaking would arise from the powerful first
stage of the Ares I rocket, which will lift the Orion crew capsule
into orbit.

NASA officials hope to have a plan for fixing the design as early as
March, and they do not expect it to delay the goal of returning
astronauts to the Moon by 2020.


The entire ESAS (Exploration Systems Architecture Studies) was a fraud,
pushed through by a bunch of prima donna astronauts, one of which, Scott
(Doc the Whore) Horowitz worked for ATK - Alliant Techsystems, who ended
up with a no bid contract for the solid rocket booster Ares first stage.

Other players were Marsha (Psychotic Bitch) Ivins and Doug (Pony Tailed
Religious Freak) Stanley, a former Orbital Science engineer (OSC of the
$30,000 per kilogram to orbit solid rocket booster launcher fame).

http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/horowitz.html

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/...n_stanley.html

http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/ivins.html

We all know who Michael (Chief Engineer of the Universe) Griffin is.

http://www.nasa.gov/about/highlights/griffin_bio.html

And of course, we have George W. (to the cosmos, and beyond!) Bush.

Notice Mr. Griffin also was heavily involved with Orbital Sciences.

Now, the Stick - Ares I. Anybody with any physics training at all could
easily see that the Ares I would fail, on basic physics principles, and
that the entire VSE (Vision for Space Exploration) was George W. Bush's
vanity space program. His daddy tried it (the SEI - Space Exploration
Initiative) and it failed miserably, fortunately before they wasted
billions of dollars and years of our valuable time pursuing it.

However, at the time, nobody besides myself stood up to challenge this.

If you will recall, for two full years I ran an advanced Wordpress AJAX
blog (BLOB) with the sole purpose of challenging this idiotic program :

http://cosmic.lifeform.org (offline)

I pounded on these people for two full years to no avail. However,
during this period, my working group (The Tsiolkovsky Group) also ran
our own launch vehicle architecture study, using a new release of the
Orbiter Space Flight Simulator as our physical simulation test bed. We
occasionally posted our results on the blog and on sci.space.policy so
that everyone could keep up with our work and follow it if they chose.

Then, in November of 2007, another round of COTS (Commercial Orbital
Transportation System) Solicitation was proposed, and we wrapped up our
study, and wrote a position paper, which we submitted as a proposal.

http://webpages.charter.net/tsiolkov...oposal/IPO.doc

During this time I also poked and prodded Keith Cowing with everything I
had, in order to attempt to get him to act on the information we knew he
had, but also to no avail. My understanding is that finally as these
issues became more widely known, AP filed a FOIA (Freedom of Information
Act) request, and Keith Cowing, reading the writing on the walls after
two full years, finally filed a PAO (Public Affairs Office) request
specifically citing the vibration issues, which should have been obvious
from the start. Now finally, this is in the news. Two years too late.

So, almost three full years and countless billions of dollars have been
wasted on what is inarguably a dead end in space. Considering that
America is wasting billions a week on a dead end war, and billions a day
servicing an incredible debt, clearly this is really just small change.

Just add it to the ever growing list of Bush administration scandals.

If we didn't absolutely need a viable space program to combat an ever
increasing environmental disaster I would never have bothered with this.

I'm getting back into condensed matter physics, the war is lost here.

If you want to follow this story, you can get the entire scoop here :

http://rocketsandsuch.blogspot.com

This guy is the real hero.
Ads
  #2  
Old January 22nd 08, 12:38 AM posted to alt.politics.bush,sci.space.policy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Martha Adams
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 371
Default Problem in design of $100 billion dollar moon rocket


"kT" wrote in message
...
Harry Hope wrote:

The space agency has been working on a plan to return to the Moon, at
a cost of more than $100 billion, since 2005.


http://www.hindu.com/2008/01/21/stor...2155291500.htm

Jan 21, 2008

WASHINGTON: NASA is wrestling with a potentially dangerous problem in
a
spacecraft, this time in a Moon rocket that has not even been built
yet.

Engineers are concerned that the rocket meant to replace the space
shuttle and send astronauts on their way to the Moon could shake
violently during the first few minutes of flight, possibly destroying
the entire vehicle.

“They know it’s a real problem,” said Carnegie Mellon University
engineering professor Paul Fischbeck, who has consulted on risk
issues
with NASA in the past. “This thing is going to shake apart the whole
structure, and they’ve
got to solve it.”

If not corrected, the shaking would arise from the powerful first
stage of the Ares I rocket, which will lift the Orion crew capsule
into orbit.

NASA officials hope to have a plan for fixing the design as early as
March, and they do not expect it to delay the goal of returning
astronauts to the Moon by 2020.


The entire ESAS (Exploration Systems Architecture Studies) was a
fraud, pushed through by a bunch of prima donna astronauts, one of
which, Scott (Doc the Whore) Horowitz worked for ATK - Alliant
Techsystems, who ended up with a no bid contract for the solid rocket
booster Ares first stage.

Other players were Marsha (Psychotic Bitch) Ivins and Doug (Pony
Tailed Religious Freak) Stanley, a former Orbital Science engineer
(OSC of the $30,000 per kilogram to orbit solid rocket booster
launcher fame).

http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/horowitz.html

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/...n_stanley.html

http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/ivins.html

We all know who Michael (Chief Engineer of the Universe) Griffin is.

http://www.nasa.gov/about/highlights/griffin_bio.html

And of course, we have George W. (to the cosmos, and beyond!) Bush.

Notice Mr. Griffin also was heavily involved with Orbital Sciences.

Now, the Stick - Ares I. Anybody with any physics training at all
could easily see that the Ares I would fail, on basic physics
principles, and that the entire VSE (Vision for Space Exploration) was
George W. Bush's vanity space program. His daddy tried it (the SEI -
Space Exploration Initiative) and it failed miserably, fortunately
before they wasted billions of dollars and years of our valuable time
pursuing it.

However, at the time, nobody besides myself stood up to challenge
this.

If you will recall, for two full years I ran an advanced Wordpress
AJAX blog (BLOB) with the sole purpose of challenging this idiotic
program :

http://cosmic.lifeform.org (offline)

I pounded on these people for two full years to no avail. However,
during this period, my working group (The Tsiolkovsky Group) also ran
our own launch vehicle architecture study, using a new release of the
Orbiter Space Flight Simulator as our physical simulation test bed. We
occasionally posted our results on the blog and on sci.space.policy so
that everyone could keep up with our work and follow it if they chose.

Then, in November of 2007, another round of COTS (Commercial Orbital
Transportation System) Solicitation was proposed, and we wrapped up
our study, and wrote a position paper, which we submitted as a
proposal.

http://webpages.charter.net/tsiolkov...oposal/IPO.doc

During this time I also poked and prodded Keith Cowing with everything
I had, in order to attempt to get him to act on the information we
knew he had, but also to no avail. My understanding is that finally as
these issues became more widely known, AP filed a FOIA (Freedom of
Information Act) request, and Keith Cowing, reading the writing on the
walls after two full years, finally filed a PAO (Public Affairs
Office) request specifically citing the vibration issues, which should
have been obvious from the start. Now finally, this is in the news.
Two years too late.

So, almost three full years and countless billions of dollars have
been wasted on what is inarguably a dead end in space. Considering
that America is wasting billions a week on a dead end war, and
billions a day servicing an incredible debt, clearly this is really
just small change.

Just add it to the ever growing list of Bush administration scandals.

If we didn't absolutely need a viable space program to combat an ever
increasing environmental disaster I would never have bothered with
this.

I'm getting back into condensed matter physics, the war is lost here.

If you want to follow this story, you can get the entire scoop here :

http://rocketsandsuch.blogspot.com

This guy is the real hero.


Do consider your balloon full now of hot air; your horn
more than adequately tootled. Now can you say *in plain
engineering English*, *what the problem is*? ??

Thanks -- Martha Adams [sci.space.policy 2008 Jan 21]


  #3  
Old January 22nd 08, 12:49 AM posted to alt.politics.bush,sci.space.policy,sci.environment,sci.physics
kT
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,032
Default Problem in design of $100 billion dollar moon rocket

Martha Adams wrote:

"kT" wrote in message
...
Harry Hope wrote:

The space agency has been working on a plan to return to the Moon, at
a cost of more than $100 billion, since 2005.


http://www.hindu.com/2008/01/21/stor...2155291500.htm

Jan 21, 2008

WASHINGTON: NASA is wrestling with a potentially dangerous problem in a
spacecraft, this time in a Moon rocket that has not even been built
yet.

Engineers are concerned that the rocket meant to replace the space
shuttle and send astronauts on their way to the Moon could shake
violently during the first few minutes of flight, possibly destroying
the entire vehicle.

“They know it’s a real problem,” said Carnegie Mellon University
engineering professor Paul Fischbeck, who has consulted on risk issues
with NASA in the past. “This thing is going to shake apart the whole
structure, and they’ve
got to solve it.”

If not corrected, the shaking would arise from the powerful first
stage of the Ares I rocket, which will lift the Orion crew capsule
into orbit.

NASA officials hope to have a plan for fixing the design as early as
March, and they do not expect it to delay the goal of returning
astronauts to the Moon by 2020.


The entire ESAS (Exploration Systems Architecture Studies) was a
fraud, pushed through by a bunch of prima donna astronauts, one of
which, Scott (Doc the Whore) Horowitz worked for ATK - Alliant
Techsystems, who ended up with a no bid contract for the solid rocket
booster Ares first stage.

Other players were Marsha (Psychotic Bitch) Ivins and Doug (Pony
Tailed Religious Freak) Stanley, a former Orbital Science engineer
(OSC of the $30,000 per kilogram to orbit solid rocket booster
launcher fame).

http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/horowitz.html

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/...n_stanley.html

http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/ivins.html

We all know who Michael (Chief Engineer of the Universe) Griffin is.

http://www.nasa.gov/about/highlights/griffin_bio.html

And of course, we have George W. (to the cosmos, and beyond!) Bush.

Notice Mr. Griffin also was heavily involved with Orbital Sciences.

Now, the Stick - Ares I. Anybody with any physics training at all
could easily see that the Ares I would fail, on basic physics
principles, and that the entire VSE (Vision for Space Exploration) was
George W. Bush's vanity space program. His daddy tried it (the SEI -
Space Exploration Initiative) and it failed miserably, fortunately
before they wasted billions of dollars and years of our valuable time
pursuing it.

However, at the time, nobody besides myself stood up to challenge this.

If you will recall, for two full years I ran an advanced Wordpress
AJAX blog (BLOB) with the sole purpose of challenging this idiotic
program :

http://cosmic.lifeform.org (offline)

I pounded on these people for two full years to no avail. However,
during this period, my working group (The Tsiolkovsky Group) also ran
our own launch vehicle architecture study, using a new release of the
Orbiter Space Flight Simulator as our physical simulation test bed. We
occasionally posted our results on the blog and on sci.space.policy so
that everyone could keep up with our work and follow it if they chose.

Then, in November of 2007, another round of COTS (Commercial Orbital
Transportation System) Solicitation was proposed, and we wrapped up
our study, and wrote a position paper, which we submitted as a proposal.

http://webpages.charter.net/tsiolkov...oposal/IPO.doc

During this time I also poked and prodded Keith Cowing with everything
I had, in order to attempt to get him to act on the information we
knew he had, but also to no avail. My understanding is that finally as
these issues became more widely known, AP filed a FOIA (Freedom of
Information Act) request, and Keith Cowing, reading the writing on the
walls after two full years, finally filed a PAO (Public Affairs
Office) request specifically citing the vibration issues, which should
have been obvious from the start. Now finally, this is in the news.
Two years too late.

So, almost three full years and countless billions of dollars have
been wasted on what is inarguably a dead end in space. Considering
that America is wasting billions a week on a dead end war, and
billions a day servicing an incredible debt, clearly this is really
just small change.

Just add it to the ever growing list of Bush administration scandals.

If we didn't absolutely need a viable space program to combat an ever
increasing environmental disaster I would never have bothered with this.

I'm getting back into condensed matter physics, the war is lost here.

If you want to follow this story, you can get the entire scoop here :

http://rocketsandsuch.blogspot.com

This guy is the real hero.


Do consider your balloon full now of hot air; your horn
more than adequately tootled. Now can you say *in plain
engineering English*, *what the problem is*? ?


Well, nothing actually, except tomorrow there is going to be a crash in
the US financial markets, and then an outright panic, when Americans
finally recognize that the emperor has no clothes on, is stark naked,
and everybody in the United States will be standing around in the
freezing cold, snow and rain with their pants down. Capiche?

The rocket is a minor side issue, I like the Delta IV Medium myself, and
I can think of lots of cool things to do with a Delta IV Medium upper
stage, so really I'm not too concerned that the Ares I is a failure.

However, if the Delta IV Medium is ok, the Delta V Heavy with an SSME on
the core stage going single stage to orbit in wet launch configuration,
and a pair of NK-33s on the recoverable booster stages is even better.

You see, it a liquid verses a solid thing. If ATK is going to build this
SRB thing, then somebody has to step up to the plate from the Boeing and
Pratt and Whitney / Rocketdyne side of the field and take a swing at it.

This is exactly what I will be proposing to the next administration.

Meanwhile, you have yet another year of the administration bringing you
tomorrow. I do hope that you enjoy your day tomorrow - DON'T PANIC!

It's just the end of the United States as you know it, courtesy of
George W. Bush, Michael Griffin and Conrad Lautenbacher and friends.

It just means being very cold and very hungry for a long while.
  #4  
Old January 22nd 08, 02:12 AM posted to alt.politics.bush, sci.space.policy, sci.environment, sci.physics
rhw007
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 73
Default Problem in design of $100 billion dollar moon rocket

On Jan 21, 7:49 pm, kT wrote:
Martha Adams wrote:

"kT" wrote in message
...
Harry Hope wrote:


The space agency has been working on a plan to return to the Moon, at
a cost of more than $100 billion, since 2005.


http://www.hindu.com/2008/01/21/stor...2155291500.htm


Jan 21, 2008


WASHINGTON: NASA is wrestling with a potentially dangerous problem in a
spacecraft, this time in a Moon rocket that has not even been built
yet.


Engineers are concerned that the rocket meant to replace the space
shuttle and send astronauts on their way to the Moon could shake
violently during the first few minutes of flight, possibly destroying
the entire vehicle.


"They know it's a real problem," said Carnegie Mellon University
engineering professor Paul Fischbeck, who has consulted on risk issues
with NASA in the past. "This thing is going to shake apart the whole
structure, and they've
got to solve it."


If not corrected, the shaking would arise from the powerful first
stage of the Ares I rocket, which will lift the Orion crew capsule
into orbit.


NASA officials hope to have a plan for fixing the design as early as
March, and they do not expect it to delay the goal of returning
astronauts to the Moon by 2020.


The entire ESAS (Exploration Systems Architecture Studies) was a
fraud, pushed through by a bunch of prima donna astronauts, one of
which, Scott (Doc the Whore) Horowitz worked for ATK - Alliant
Techsystems, who ended up with a no bid contract for the solid rocket
booster Ares first stage.


Other players were Marsha (Psychotic Bitch) Ivins and Doug (Pony
Tailed Religious Freak) Stanley, a former Orbital Science engineer
(OSC of the $30,000 per kilogram to orbit solid rocket booster
launcher fame).


http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/horowitz.html


http://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/...n_stanley.html


http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/ivins.html


We all know who Michael (Chief Engineer of the Universe) Griffin is.


http://www.nasa.gov/about/highlights/griffin_bio.html


And of course, we have George W. (to the cosmos, and beyond!) Bush.


Notice Mr. Griffin also was heavily involved with Orbital Sciences.


Now, the Stick - Ares I. Anybody with any physics training at all
could easily see that the Ares I would fail, on basic physics
principles, and that the entire VSE (Vision for Space Exploration) was
George W. Bush's vanity space program. His daddy tried it (the SEI -
Space Exploration Initiative) and it failed miserably, fortunately
before they wasted billions of dollars and years of our valuable time
pursuing it.


However, at the time, nobody besides myself stood up to challenge this.


If you will recall, for two full years I ran an advanced Wordpress
AJAX blog (BLOB) with the sole purpose of challenging this idiotic
program :


http://cosmic.lifeform.org(offline)


I pounded on these people for two full years to no avail. However,
during this period, my working group (The Tsiolkovsky Group) also ran
our own launch vehicle architecture study, using a new release of the
Orbiter Space Flight Simulator as our physical simulation test bed. We
occasionally posted our results on the blog and on sci.space.policy so
that everyone could keep up with our work and follow it if they chose.


Then, in November of 2007, another round of COTS (Commercial Orbital
Transportation System) Solicitation was proposed, and we wrapped up
our study, and wrote a position paper, which we submitted as a proposal.


http://webpages.charter.net/tsiolkov...oposal/IPO.doc


During this time I also poked and prodded Keith Cowing with everything
I had, in order to attempt to get him to act on the information we
knew he had, but also to no avail. My understanding is that finally as
these issues became more widely known, AP filed a FOIA (Freedom of
Information Act) request, and Keith Cowing, reading the writing on the
walls after two full years, finally filed a PAO (Public Affairs
Office) request specifically citing the vibration issues, which should
have been obvious from the start. Now finally, this is in the news.
Two years too late.


So, almost three full years and countless billions of dollars have
been wasted on what is inarguably a dead end in space. Considering
that America is wasting billions a week on a dead end war, and
billions a day servicing an incredible debt, clearly this is really
just small change.


Just add it to the ever growing list of Bush administration scandals.


If we didn't absolutely need a viable space program to combat an ever
increasing environmental disaster I would never have bothered with this.


I'm getting back into condensed matter physics, the war is lost here.


If you want to follow this story, you can get the entire scoop here :


http://rocketsandsuch.blogspot.com


This guy is the real hero.


Do consider your balloon full now of hot air; your horn
more than adequately tootled. Now can you say *in plain
engineering English*, *what the problem is*? ?


Well, nothing actually, except tomorrow there is going to be a crash in
the US financial markets, and then an outright panic, when Americans
finally recognize that the emperor has no clothes on, is stark naked,
and everybody in the United States will be standing around in the
freezing cold, snow and rain with their pants down. Capiche?

The rocket is a minor side issue, I like the Delta IV Medium myself, and
I can think of lots of cool things to do with a Delta IV Medium upper
stage, so really I'm not too concerned that the Ares I is a failure.

However, if the Delta IV Medium is ok, the Delta V Heavy with an SSME on
the core stage going single stage to orbit in wet launch configuration,
and a pair of NK-33s on the recoverable booster stages is even better.

You see, it a liquid verses a solid thing. If ATK is going to build this
SRB thing, then somebody has to step up to the plate from the Boeing and
Pratt and Whitney / Rocketdyne side of the field and take a swing at it.

This is exactly what I will be proposing to the next administration.

Meanwhile, you have yet another year of the administration bringing you
tomorrow. I do hope that you enjoy your day tomorrow - DON'T PANIC!

It's just the end of the United States as you know it, courtesy of
George W. Bush, Michael Griffin and Conrad Lautenbacher and friends.

It just means being very cold and very hungry for a long while.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -




Your being blow-off by Keith Cowing is NO SURPRISE to me.

Him and I have had run-ins in the past and absolutely forbids me to
even email him.

He will delete my email without even reading and reply back that "I
told you NEVER to contact me".

He's like James Oberg...a NASA APOLOGISTS who will NOT believe
ANYTHING in the Universe is NEW and EXCITING unless it comes from the
great and almighty NASA. period.

They brush off Mars anomalous research from PHDs and even from people
within NASA itself who PROVE that NASA is lying and fudging images of
Mars released to the public.

Georgie Jr's great "Space Dream" will end up putting our efforts back
decades.

What we REALLY need...we'll likely never get:

http://commonsensecentral.blogspot.c...e-are-you.html

http://commonsensecentral.blogspot.c...-starship.html

Bob...
http://commonsensecentral.net/
  #5  
Old January 22nd 08, 02:47 AM posted to alt.politics.bush, sci.space.policy, sci.environment, sci.physics
BradGuth
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21,544
Default Problem in design of $100 billion dollar moon rocket

On Jan 21, 4:49 pm, kT wrote:
Martha Adams wrote:

"kT" wrote in message
...
Harry Hope wrote:


The space agency has been working on a plan to return to the Moon, at
a cost of more than $100 billion, since 2005.


http://www.hindu.com/2008/01/21/stor...2155291500.htm


Jan 21, 2008


WASHINGTON: NASA is wrestling with a potentially dangerous problem in a
spacecraft, this time in a Moon rocket that has not even been built
yet.


Engineers are concerned that the rocket meant to replace the space
shuttle and send astronauts on their way to the Moon could shake
violently during the first few minutes of flight, possibly destroying
the entire vehicle.


"They know it's a real problem," said Carnegie Mellon University
engineering professor Paul Fischbeck, who has consulted on risk issues
with NASA in the past. "This thing is going to shake apart the whole
structure, and they've
got to solve it."


If not corrected, the shaking would arise from the powerful first
stage of the Ares I rocket, which will lift the Orion crew capsule
into orbit.


NASA officials hope to have a plan for fixing the design as early as
March, and they do not expect it to delay the goal of returning
astronauts to the Moon by 2020.


The entire ESAS (Exploration Systems Architecture Studies) was a
fraud, pushed through by a bunch of prima donna astronauts, one of
which, Scott (Doc the Whore) Horowitz worked for ATK - Alliant
Techsystems, who ended up with a no bid contract for the solid rocket
booster Ares first stage.


Other players were Marsha (Psychotic Bitch) Ivins and Doug (Pony
Tailed Religious Freak) Stanley, a former Orbital Science engineer
(OSC of the $30,000 per kilogram to orbit solid rocket booster
launcher fame).


http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/horowitz.html


http://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/...n_stanley.html


http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/ivins.html


We all know who Michael (Chief Engineer of the Universe) Griffin is.


http://www.nasa.gov/about/highlights/griffin_bio.html


And of course, we have George W. (to the cosmos, and beyond!) Bush.


Notice Mr. Griffin also was heavily involved with Orbital Sciences.


Now, the Stick - Ares I. Anybody with any physics training at all
could easily see that the Ares I would fail, on basic physics
principles, and that the entire VSE (Vision for Space Exploration) was
George W. Bush's vanity space program. His daddy tried it (the SEI -
Space Exploration Initiative) and it failed miserably, fortunately
before they wasted billions of dollars and years of our valuable time
pursuing it.


However, at the time, nobody besides myself stood up to challenge this.


If you will recall, for two full years I ran an advanced Wordpress
AJAX blog (BLOB) with the sole purpose of challenging this idiotic
program :


http://cosmic.lifeform.org(offline)


I pounded on these people for two full years to no avail. However,
during this period, my working group (The Tsiolkovsky Group) also ran
our own launch vehicle architecture study, using a new release of the
Orbiter Space Flight Simulator as our physical simulation test bed. We
occasionally posted our results on the blog and on sci.space.policy so
that everyone could keep up with our work and follow it if they chose.


Then, in November of 2007, another round of COTS (Commercial Orbital
Transportation System) Solicitation was proposed, and we wrapped up
our study, and wrote a position paper, which we submitted as a proposal.


http://webpages.charter.net/tsiolkov...oposal/IPO.doc


During this time I also poked and prodded Keith Cowing with everything
I had, in order to attempt to get him to act on the information we
knew he had, but also to no avail. My understanding is that finally as
these issues became more widely known, AP filed a FOIA (Freedom of
Information Act) request, and Keith Cowing, reading the writing on the
walls after two full years, finally filed a PAO (Public Affairs
Office) request specifically citing the vibration issues, which should
have been obvious from the start. Now finally, this is in the news.
Two years too late.


So, almost three full years and countless billions of dollars have
been wasted on what is inarguably a dead end in space. Considering
that America is wasting billions a week on a dead end war, and
billions a day servicing an incredible debt, clearly this is really
just small change.


Just add it to the ever growing list of Bush administration scandals.


If we didn't absolutely need a viable space program to combat an ever
increasing environmental disaster I would never have bothered with this.


I'm getting back into condensed matter physics, the war is lost here.


If you want to follow this story, you can get the entire scoop here :


http://rocketsandsuch.blogspot.com


This guy is the real hero.


Do consider your balloon full now of hot air; your horn
more than adequately tootled. Now can you say *in plain
engineering English*, *what the problem is*? ?


Well, nothing actually, except tomorrow there is going to be a crash in
the US financial markets, and then an outright panic, when Americans
finally recognize that the emperor has no clothes on, is stark naked,
and everybody in the United States will be standing around in the
freezing cold, snow and rain with their pants down. Capiche?

The rocket is a minor side issue, I like the Delta IV Medium myself, and
I can think of lots of cool things to do with a Delta IV Medium upper
stage, so really I'm not too concerned that the Ares I is a failure.

However, if the Delta IV Medium is ok, the Delta V Heavy with an SSME on
the core stage going single stage to orbit in wet launch configuration,
and a pair of NK-33s on the recoverable booster stages is even better.

You see, it a liquid verses a solid thing. If ATK is going to build this
SRB thing, then somebody has to step up to the plate from the Boeing and
Pratt and Whitney / Rocketdyne side of the field and take a swing at it.

This is exactly what I will be proposing to the next administration.

Meanwhile, you have yet another year of the administration bringing you
tomorrow. I do hope that you enjoy your day tomorrow - DON'T PANIC!

It's just the end of the United States as you know it, courtesy of
George W. Bush, Michael Griffin and Conrad Lautenbacher and friends.

It just means being very cold and very hungry for a long while.


Perhaps Muslims with oil will come to our pathetic salvation.

It is bad financial news, but the feds can drop 2 full points if need
be, although a one point drop in the cost of our federal bank loans
should do the trick unless the other shoe drops.
- Brad Guth
  #6  
Old January 22nd 08, 02:52 AM posted to alt.politics.bush, sci.space.policy, sci.environment, sci.physics
BradGuth
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21,544
Default Problem in design of $100 billion dollar moon rocket

On Jan 21, 6:12 pm, rhw007 wrote:
On Jan 21, 7:49 pm, kT wrote:



Martha Adams wrote:


"kT" wrote in message
...
Harry Hope wrote:


The space agency has been working on a plan to return to the Moon, at
a cost of more than $100 billion, since 2005.


http://www.hindu.com/2008/01/21/stor...2155291500.htm


Jan 21, 2008


WASHINGTON: NASA is wrestling with a potentially dangerous problem in a
spacecraft, this time in a Moon rocket that has not even been built
yet.


Engineers are concerned that the rocket meant to replace the space
shuttle and send astronauts on their way to the Moon could shake
violently during the first few minutes of flight, possibly destroying
the entire vehicle.


"They know it's a real problem," said Carnegie Mellon University
engineering professor Paul Fischbeck, who has consulted on risk issues
with NASA in the past. "This thing is going to shake apart the whole
structure, and they've
got to solve it."


If not corrected, the shaking would arise from the powerful first
stage of the Ares I rocket, which will lift the Orion crew capsule
into orbit.


NASA officials hope to have a plan for fixing the design as early as
March, and they do not expect it to delay the goal of returning
astronauts to the Moon by 2020.


The entire ESAS (Exploration Systems Architecture Studies) was a
fraud, pushed through by a bunch of prima donna astronauts, one of
which, Scott (Doc the Whore) Horowitz worked for ATK - Alliant
Techsystems, who ended up with a no bid contract for the solid rocket
booster Ares first stage.


Other players were Marsha (Psychotic Bitch) Ivins and Doug (Pony
Tailed Religious Freak) Stanley, a former Orbital Science engineer
(OSC of the $30,000 per kilogram to orbit solid rocket booster
launcher fame).


http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/horowitz.html


http://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/...n_stanley.html


http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/ivins.html


We all know who Michael (Chief Engineer of the Universe) Griffin is.


http://www.nasa.gov/about/highlights/griffin_bio.html


And of course, we have George W. (to the cosmos, and beyond!) Bush.


Notice Mr. Griffin also was heavily involved with Orbital Sciences.


Now, the Stick - Ares I. Anybody with any physics training at all
could easily see that the Ares I would fail, on basic physics
principles, and that the entire VSE (Vision for Space Exploration) was
George W. Bush's vanity space program. His daddy tried it (the SEI -
Space Exploration Initiative) and it failed miserably, fortunately
before they wasted billions of dollars and years of our valuable time
pursuing it.


However, at the time, nobody besides myself stood up to challenge this.


If you will recall, for two full years I ran an advanced Wordpress
AJAX blog (BLOB) with the sole purpose of challenging this idiotic
program :


http://cosmic.lifeform.org(offline)


I pounded on these people for two full years to no avail. However,
during this period, my working group (The Tsiolkovsky Group) also ran
our own launch vehicle architecture study, using a new release of the
Orbiter Space Flight Simulator as our physical simulation test bed. We
occasionally posted our results on the blog and on sci.space.policy so
that everyone could keep up with our work and follow it if they chose.


Then, in November of 2007, another round of COTS (Commercial Orbital
Transportation System) Solicitation was proposed, and we wrapped up
our study, and wrote a position paper, which we submitted as a proposal.


http://webpages.charter.net/tsiolkov...oposal/IPO.doc


During this time I also poked and prodded Keith Cowing with everything
I had, in order to attempt to get him to act on the information we
knew he had, but also to no avail. My understanding is that finally as
these issues became more widely known, AP filed a FOIA (Freedom of
Information Act) request, and Keith Cowing, reading the writing on the
walls after two full years, finally filed a PAO (Public Affairs
Office) request specifically citing the vibration issues, which should
have been obvious from the start. Now finally, this is in the news.
Two years too late.


So, almost three full years and countless billions of dollars have
been wasted on what is inarguably a dead end in space. Considering
that America is wasting billions a week on a dead end war, and
billions a day servicing an incredible debt, clearly this is really
just small change.


Just add it to the ever growing list of Bush administration scandals.


If we didn't absolutely need a viable space program to combat an ever
increasing environmental disaster I would never have bothered with this.


I'm getting back into condensed matter physics, the war is lost here.


If you want to follow this story, you can get the entire scoop here :


http://rocketsandsuch.blogspot.com


This guy is the real hero.


Do consider your balloon full now of hot air; your horn
more than adequately tootled. Now can you say *in plain
engineering English*, *what the problem is*? ?


Well, nothing actually, except tomorrow there is going to be a crash in
the US financial markets, and then an outright panic, when Americans
finally recognize that the emperor has no clothes on, is stark naked,
and everybody in the United States will be standing around in the
freezing cold, snow and rain with their pants down. Capiche?


The rocket is a minor side issue, I like the Delta IV Medium myself, and
I can think of lots of cool things to do with a Delta IV Medium upper
stage, so really I'm not too concerned that the Ares I is a failure.


However, if the Delta IV Medium is ok, the Delta V Heavy with an SSME on
the core stage going single stage to orbit in wet launch configuration,
and a pair of NK-33s on the recoverable booster stages is even better.


You see, it a liquid verses a solid thing. If ATK is going to build this
SRB thing, then somebody has to step up to the plate from the Boeing and
Pratt and Whitney / Rocketdyne side of the field and take a swing at it.


This is exactly what I will be proposing to the next administration.


Meanwhile, you have yet another year of the administration bringing you
tomorrow. I do hope that you enjoy your day tomorrow - DON'T PANIC!


It's just the end of the United States as you know it, courtesy of
George W. Bush, Michael Griffin and Conrad Lautenbacher and friends.


It just means being very cold and very hungry for a long while.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Your being blow-off by Keith Cowing is NO SURPRISE to me.

Him and I have had run-ins in the past and absolutely forbids me to
even email him.

He will delete my email without even reading and reply back that "I
told you NEVER to contact me".

He's like James Oberg...a NASA APOLOGISTS who will NOT believe
ANYTHING in the Universe is NEW and EXCITING unless it comes from the
great and almighty NASA. period.

They brush off Mars anomalous research from PHDs and even from people
within NASA itself who PROVE that NASA is lying and fudging images of
Mars released to the public.

Georgie Jr's great "Space Dream" will end up putting our efforts back
decades.

What we REALLY need...we'll likely never get:

http://commonsensecentral.blogspot.c...-where-are-you....

http://commonsensecentral.blogspot.c...-to-hijack-sta...

Bob...http://commonsensecentral.net/


It's a NASA Yiddish thing, including all things Third Reich that would
put another big smile on a rabbi.
- Brad Guth
  #7  
Old January 22nd 08, 03:09 AM posted to alt.politics.bush, sci.space.policy, sci.environment, sci.physics
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 134
Default Problem in design of $100 billion dollar moon rocket

On Jan 21, 9:52*pm, BradGuth wrote:
On Jan 21, 6:12 pm, rhw007 wrote:





On Jan 21, 7:49 pm, kT wrote:


Martha Adams wrote:


"kT" wrote in message
...
Harry Hope wrote:


The space agency has been working on a plan to return to the Moon, at
a cost of more than $100 billion, since 2005.


http://www.hindu.com/2008/01/21/stor...2155291500.htm


Jan 21, 2008


WASHINGTON: NASA is wrestling with a potentially dangerous problem in a
spacecraft, this time in a Moon rocket that has not even been built
yet.


Engineers are concerned that the rocket meant to replace the space
shuttle and send astronauts on their way to the Moon could shake
violently during the first few minutes of flight, possibly destroying
the entire vehicle.


"They know it's a real problem," said Carnegie Mellon University
engineering professor Paul Fischbeck, who has consulted on risk issues
with NASA in the past. "This thing is going to shake apart the whole
structure, and they've
got to solve it."


If not corrected, the shaking would arise from the powerful first
stage of the Ares I rocket, which will lift the Orion crew capsule
into orbit.


NASA officials hope to have a plan for fixing the design as early as
March, and they do not expect it to delay the goal of returning
astronauts to the Moon by 2020.


The entire ESAS (Exploration Systems Architecture Studies) was a
fraud, pushed through by a bunch of prima donna astronauts, one of
which, Scott (Doc the Whore) Horowitz worked for ATK - Alliant
Techsystems, who ended up with a no bid contract for the solid rocket
booster Ares first stage.


Other players were Marsha (Psychotic Bitch) Ivins and Doug (Pony
Tailed Religious Freak) Stanley, a former Orbital Science engineer
(OSC of the $30,000 per kilogram to orbit solid rocket booster
launcher fame).


http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/horowitz.html


http://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/...n_stanley.html


http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/ivins.html


We all know who Michael (Chief Engineer of the Universe) Griffin is..


http://www.nasa.gov/about/highlights/griffin_bio.html


And of course, we have George W. (to the cosmos, and beyond!) Bush.


Notice Mr. Griffin also was heavily involved with Orbital Sciences.


Now, the Stick - Ares I. Anybody with any physics training at all
could easily see that the Ares I would fail, on basic physics
principles, and that the entire VSE (Vision for Space Exploration) was
George W. Bush's vanity space program. His daddy tried it (the SEI -
Space Exploration Initiative) and it failed miserably, fortunately
before they wasted billions of dollars and years of our valuable time
pursuing it.


However, at the time, nobody besides myself stood up to challenge this.


If you will recall, for two full years I ran an advanced Wordpress
AJAX blog (BLOB) with the sole purpose of challenging this idiotic
program :


http://cosmic.lifeform.org(offline)


I pounded on these people for two full years to no avail. However,
during this period, my working group (The Tsiolkovsky Group) also ran
our own launch vehicle architecture study, using a new release of the
Orbiter Space Flight Simulator as our physical simulation test bed. We
occasionally posted our results on the blog and on sci.space.policy so
that everyone could keep up with our work and follow it if they chose.


Then, in November of 2007, another round of COTS (Commercial Orbital
Transportation System) Solicitation was proposed, and we wrapped up
our study, and wrote a position paper, which we submitted as a proposal.


http://webpages.charter.net/tsiolkov...oposal/IPO.doc


During this time I also poked and prodded Keith Cowing with everything
I had, in order to attempt to get him to act on the information we
knew he had, but also to no avail. My understanding is that finally as
these issues became more widely known, AP filed a FOIA (Freedom of
Information Act) request, and Keith Cowing, reading the writing on the
walls after two full years, finally filed a PAO (Public Affairs
Office) request specifically citing the vibration issues, which should
have been obvious from the start. Now finally, this is in the news.
Two years too late.


So, almost three full years and countless billions of dollars have
been wasted on what is inarguably a dead end in space. Considering
that America is wasting billions a week on a dead end war, and
billions a day servicing an incredible debt, clearly this is really
just small change.


Just add it to the ever growing list of Bush administration scandals.


If we didn't absolutely need a viable space program to combat an ever
increasing environmental disaster I would never have bothered with this.


I'm getting back into condensed matter physics, the war is lost here.


If you want to follow this story, you can get the entire scoop here :


http://rocketsandsuch.blogspot.com


This guy is the real hero.


Do consider your balloon full now of hot air; your horn
more than adequately tootled. *Now can you say *in plain
engineering English*, *what the problem is*? *?


Well, nothing actually, except tomorrow there is going to be a crash in
the US financial markets, and then an outright panic, when Americans
finally recognize that the emperor has no clothes on, is stark naked,
and everybody in the United States will be standing around in the
freezing cold, snow and rain with their pants down. Capiche?


The rocket is a minor side issue, I like the Delta IV Medium myself, and
I can think of lots of cool things to do with a Delta IV Medium upper
stage, so really I'm not too concerned that the Ares I is a failure.


However, if the Delta IV Medium is ok, the Delta V Heavy with an SSME on
the core stage going single stage to orbit in wet launch configuration,
and a pair of NK-33s on the recoverable booster stages is even better.


You see, it a liquid verses a solid thing. If ATK is going to build this
SRB thing, then somebody has to step up to the plate from the Boeing and
Pratt and Whitney / Rocketdyne side of the field and take a swing at it.

  #8  
Old January 22nd 08, 02:46 PM posted to alt.politics.bush,sci.space.policy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Docky Wocky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13
Default Problem in design of $100 billion dollar moon rocket

Uh? Didn't they have an entirely workable design about 40 years ago?

Or, wouldn't it meet the new fuel consumption standards?



  #9  
Old January 22nd 08, 09:55 PM posted to alt.politics.bush, sci.space.policy, sci.environment, sci.physics
BradGuth
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21,544
Default Problem in design of $100 billion dollar moon rocket

On Jan 22, 6:46 am, "Docky Wocky" wrote:
Uh? Didn't they have an entirely workable design about 40 years ago?

Or, wouldn't it meet the new fuel consumption standards?


The Saturn V wasn't quite sufficient back then, although with
incorporating a great deal of low mass composites and of somewhat
better engines they should be capable getting their inert GLOW down to
a dull roar of perhaps 15% instead of the nearly 30%, and of otherwise
going with that undocumented Third Reich as-built version should do
the trick. Instead, perhaps they simply need to spend an extra $100
billion for their environmentally polluting stick.

I mean, what's another $100 billion here and there of our hard earned
loot, as spent among friends?
- Brad Guth
  #10  
Old January 22nd 08, 10:13 PM posted to alt.politics.bush, sci.space.policy, sci.environment, sci.physics
BradGuth
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21,544
Default Problem in design of $100 billion dollar moon rocket

On Jan 21, 7:09 pm, " wrote:
On Jan 21, 9:52 pm, BradGuth wrote:



On Jan 21, 6:12 pm, rhw007 wrote:


On Jan 21, 7:49 pm, kT wrote:


Martha Adams wrote:


"kT" wrote in message
...
Harry Hope wrote:


The space agency has been working on a plan to return to the Moon, at
a cost of more than $100 billion, since 2005.


http://www.hindu.com/2008/01/21/stor...2155291500.htm


Jan 21, 2008


WASHINGTON: NASA is wrestling with a potentially dangerous problem in a
spacecraft, this time in a Moon rocket that has not even been built
yet.


Engineers are concerned that the rocket meant to replace the space
shuttle and send astronauts on their way to the Moon could shake
violently during the first few minutes of flight, possibly destroying
the entire vehicle.


"They know it's a real problem," said Carnegie Mellon University
engineering professor Paul Fischbeck, who has consulted on risk issues
with NASA in the past. "This thing is going to shake apart the whole
structure, and they've
got to solve it."


If not corrected, the shaking would arise from the powerful first
stage of the Ares I rocket, which will lift the Orion crew capsule
into orbit.


NASA officials hope to have a plan for fixing the design as early as
March, and they do not expect it to delay the goal of returning
astronauts to the Moon by 2020.


The entire ESAS (Exploration Systems Architecture Studies) was a
fraud, pushed through by a bunch of prima donna astronauts, one of
which, Scott (Doc the Whore) Horowitz worked for ATK - Alliant
Techsystems, who ended up with a no bid contract for the solid rocket
booster Ares first stage.


Other players were Marsha (Psychotic Bitch) Ivins and Doug (Pony
Tailed Religious Freak) Stanley, a former Orbital Science engineer
(OSC of the $30,000 per kilogram to orbit solid rocket booster
launcher fame).


http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/horowitz.html


http://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/...n_stanley.html


http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/ivins.html


We all know who Michael (Chief Engineer of the Universe) Griffin is.


http://www.nasa.gov/about/highlights/griffin_bio.html


And of course, we have George W. (to the cosmos, and beyond!) Bush.


Notice Mr. Griffin also was heavily involved with Orbital Sciences.


Now, the Stick - Ares I. Anybody with any physics training at all
could easily see that the Ares I would fail, on basic physics
principles, and that the entire VSE (Vision for Space Exploration) was
George W. Bush's vanity space program. His daddy tried it (the SEI -
Space Exploration Initiative) and it failed miserably, fortunately
before they wasted billions of dollars and years of our valuable time
pursuing it.


However, at the time, nobody besides myself stood up to challenge this.


If you will recall, for two full years I ran an advanced Wordpress
AJAX blog (BLOB) with the sole purpose of challenging this idiotic
program :


http://cosmic.lifeform.org(offline)


I pounded on these people for two full years to no avail. However,
during this period, my working group (The Tsiolkovsky Group) also ran
our own launch vehicle architecture study, using a new release of the
Orbiter Space Flight Simulator as our physical simulation test bed. We
occasionally posted our results on the blog and on sci.space.policy so
that everyone could keep up with our work and follow it if they chose.


Then, in November of 2007, another round of COTS (Commercial Orbital
Transportation System) Solicitation was proposed, and we wrapped up
our study, and wrote a position paper, which we submitted as a proposal.


http://webpages.charter.net/tsiolkov...oposal/IPO.doc


During this time I also poked and prodded Keith Cowing with everything
I had, in order to attempt to get him to act on the information we
knew he had, but also to no avail. My understanding is that finally as
these issues became more widely known, AP filed a FOIA (Freedom of
Information Act) request, and Keith Cowing, reading the writing on the
walls after two full years, finally filed a PAO (Public Affairs
Office) request specifically citing the vibration issues, which should
have been obvious from the start. Now finally, this is in the news.
Two years too late.


So, almost three full years and countless billions of dollars have
been wasted on what is inarguably a dead end in space. Considering
that America is wasting billions a week on a dead end war, and
billions a day servicing an incredible debt, clearly this is really
just small change.


Just add it to the ever growing list of Bush administration scandals.


If we didn't absolutely need a viable space program to combat an ever
increasing environmental disaster I would never have bothered with this.


I'm getting back into condensed matter physics, the war is lost here.


If you want to follow this story, you can get the entire scoop here :


http://rocketsandsuch.blogspot.com


This guy is the real hero.


Do consider your balloon full now of hot air; your horn
more than adequately tootled. Now can you say *in plain
engineering English*, *what the problem is*? ?


Well, nothing actually, except tomorrow there is going to be a crash in
the US financial markets, and then an outright panic, when Americans
finally recognize that the emperor has no clothes on, is stark naked,
and everybody in the United States will be standing around in the
freezing cold, snow and rain with their pants down. Capiche?


The rocket is a minor side issue, I like the Delta IV Medium myself, and
I can think of lots of cool things to do with a Delta IV Medium upper
stage, so really I'm not too concerned that the Ares I is a failure.


However, if the Delta IV Medium is ok, the Delta V Heavy with an SSME on
the core stage going single stage to orbit in wet launch configuration,
and a pair of NK-33s on the recoverable booster stages is even better.


You see, it a liquid verses a solid thing. If ATK is going to build this
SRB thing, then somebody has to step up to the plate from the Boeing and
Pratt and Whitney / Rocketdyne side of the field and take a swing at it.


This is exactly what I will be proposing to the next administration.


Meanwhile, you have yet another year of the administration bringing you
tomorrow. I do hope that you enjoy your day tomorrow - DON'T PANIC!


It's just the end of the United States as you know it, courtesy of
George W. Bush, Michael Griffin and Conrad Lautenbacher and friends.


It just means being very cold and very hungry for a long while.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Your being blow-off by Keith Cowing is NO SURPRISE to me.


Him and I have had run-ins in the past and absolutely forbids me to
even email him.


He will delete my email without even reading and reply back that "I
told you NEVER to contact me".


He's like James Oberg...a NASA APOLOGISTS who will NOT believe
ANYTHING in the Universe is NEW and EXCITING unless it comes from the
great and almighty NASA. period.


They brush off Mars anomalous research from PHDs and even from people
within NASA itself who PROVE that NASA is lying and fudging images of
Mars released to the public.


Georgie Jr's great "Space Dream" will end up putting our efforts back
decades.


What we REALLY need...we'll likely never get:


http://commonsensecentral.blogspot.c...-where-are-you....


http://commonsensecentral.blogspot.c...-to-hijack-sta...


Bob...http://commonsensecentral.net/


It's a NASA Yiddish thing, including all things Third Reich that would
put another big smile on a rabbi.
- Brad Guth- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Brad, can't dispute that except to say that it was far more likey to
be a "Gray Hair" rather than a Yiddish thing (although many of the
Gray Hair dudes were Jewish.) As with most aerospace operations, the
'Olf Farts' were laid off back around 1995 as a expense cutting
measure because they were the most expensive to keep on the payroll.
Dhuhh!

Now it's 2008, and no-one on the payroll has the experience to build a
moon capable craft, and we have to go through the learning curve
again.

Didn't NASA bother to save the design notes?

Harry C.


Everything of our NASA/Apollo fiasco that was Third Reich and
otherwise more Semitic than not, got lost or was intentionally
destroyed so that the whole truth and nothing but the truth simply
couldn't be so easily uncovered.

BTW, the cost of keeping those fly-by-rocket smart Jews employed was
not the primary reason for our NASA getting rid of them. It had to do
extensively with their Third Reich status, of which needed to remain
as forever hidden as OBL and those Muslim WMD.
- Brad Guth
 




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