Why no Soyuz docking while a Shuttle is present?

The current Discovery mission being cut a bit short had me
wandering... is this rule against Soyuz docking to the joint
station/shuttle stack a structural load issue, where perhaps the APAS
interface might be overstressed by Soyuz contact and capture, or
something else?

If it's structural, how much would it help if the aft port on Zvezda
(the one usually occupied by a Progress) were freed up in advance, so
the visiting Soyuz could make an axial docking?
--
Jordan.

If From: domain is munged, please de-phoneticize to [a-z][a-z][0-9][0-9].net

lid (Jordan Hazen) wrote:

The current Discovery mission being cut a bit short had me
wandering... is this rule against Soyuz docking to the joint
station/shuttle stack a structural load issue, where perhaps the APAS
interface might be overstressed by Soyuz contact and capture, or
something else?

As I understand it:

It boils down to "they never planned on it, so they never spent the
money to do the analysis to ensure it was safe". They never planned on
it at this stage of construction because at earlier stages it *was*
unsafe, so they based their scheduling around that.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

Jordan Hazen wrote:

If it's structural, how much would it help if the aft port on Zvezda
(the one usually occupied by a Progress) were freed up in advance, so
the visiting Soyuz could make an axial docking?

Forgetting NASA's fear that a Soyuz would bump into the shuttle, you
need to consider workloads inside the station.

When the shuttle is present, they have a huge workload and the station
crew is dedicated to helping the shuttle crews do all the work. Same
with a Soyuz. When you put the 2 at the same time, the station crew
wouldn't be able to be fully dedicated to both at the same time.

There would also be quite a strain on the station ECLSS, toilets and
exercise equipment. And there may be logistical problems with 2 crew
changes happening at the same time with not enough time to exchange
information.

It would be nice to see it happen however. Perhaps on the last day of
docked operations, the soyuz could dock and a big party held for a
couple of hours before shuttle left.

"John Doe" wrote in message
...
There would also be quite a strain on the station ECLSS, toilets and
exercise equipment. And there may be logistical problems with 2 crew
changes happening at the same time with not enough time to exchange
information.

It would be nice to see it happen however. Perhaps on the last day of
docked operations, the soyuz could dock and a big party held for a
couple of hours before shuttle left.

You know, we may soon break the old record for people in space.

I could see a 6 person crew, a shuttle of 6-7 and then 3 on a Soyuz waiting
to dock.





--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.

On Mar 26, 4:55*pm, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)"
wrote:
"John Doe" wrote in message

... There would also be quite a strain on the station ECLSS, toilets and
exercise equipment. And there may be logistical problems with 2 crew
changes happening at the same time with not enough time to exchange
information.

It would be nice to see it happen however. Perhaps on the last day of
docked operations, the soyuz could dock and a big party held for a
couple of hours before shuttle left.

You know, we may soon break the old record for people in space.

I could see a 6 person crew, a shuttle of 6-7 and then 3 on a Soyuz waiting
to dock.

Although very unlikely, the maximum would be 3 Soyuz, 3 Shenzhou , 7
shuttle, and 6 ISS. Nineteen total.
-Mike

In sci.space.station message 58fca445-2b01-4736-9361-2a243c38c893@x31g2
000prc.googlegroups.com, Fri, 27 Mar 2009 20:51:54,
posted:
On Mar 26, 4:55*pm, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)"
wrote:

You know, we may soon break the old record for people in space.

I could see a 6 person crew, a shuttle of 6-7 and then 3 on a Soyuz waiting
to dock.

Although very unlikely, the maximum would be 3 Soyuz, 3 Shenzhou , 7
shuttle, and 6 ISS. Nineteen total.

Seven in a Dragon could substitute for 7 Shuttle.

If Atlantis launches a little late to Hubble (as is very possible), and
the next Soyuz launches on time (as is likely), and Atlantis suffers
damage requiring Endeavour LON, there would be 6 in the Station, 7 in
Atlantis, and AIUI 4 in Endeavour. Total seventeen.

--
(c) John Stockton, nr London, UK. Turnpike v6.05 MIME.
Web URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/ - FAQqish topics, acronyms & links;
Astro stuff via astron-1.htm, gravity0.htm ; quotings.htm, pascal.htm, etc.
No Encoding. Quotes before replies. Snip well. Write clearly. Don't Mail News.

Dr J R Stockton wrote:

In sci.space.station message 58fca445-2b01-4736-9361-2a243c38c893@x31g2
000prc.googlegroups.com, Fri, 27 Mar 2009 20:51:54,
posted:
On Mar 26, 4:55*pm, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)"
wrote:

You know, we may soon break the old record for people in space.

I could see a 6 person crew, a shuttle of 6-7 and then 3 on a Soyuz waiting
to dock.

Although very unlikely, the maximum would be 3 Soyuz, 3 Shenzhou , 7
shuttle, and 6 ISS. Nineteen total.

Seven in a Dragon could substitute for 7 Shuttle.

And a couple of thousand in a Constitution class could blow 'em all
away.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

On Mar 29, 9:09*am, Dr J R Stockton wrote:
Seven in a Dragon could substitute for 7 Shuttle.

Possibly...when shuttle is eventually retired.

If Atlantis launches a little late to Hubble (as is very possible), and
the next Soyuz launches on time (as is likely), and Atlantis suffers
damage requiring Endeavour LON, there would be 6 in the Station, 7 in
Atlantis, and AIUI 4 in Endeavour. *Total seventeen.

That's a scenario that is extremely unlikely, and highly undesireable.
I'd rather hope to see 7 in Shuttle, 7 in Dragon, 6 in ISS 3 in
Soyuz, and 3 in Shenzhou for a total of 26.
-Mike

In sci.space.station message ,
Sun, 29 Mar 2009 18:13:30, Derek Lyons posted:
Dr J R Stockton wrote:

In sci.space.station message 58fca445-2b01-4736-9361-2a243c38c893@x31g2
000prc.googlegroups.com, Fri, 27 Mar 2009 20:51:54,
posted:
On Mar 26, 4:55*pm, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)"
wrote:

You know, we may soon break the old record for people in space.

I could see a 6 person crew, a shuttle of 6-7 and then 3 on a Soyuz waiting
to dock.

Although very unlikely, the maximum would be 3 Soyuz, 3 Shenzhou , 7
shuttle, and 6 ISS. Nineteen total.

Seven in a Dragon could substitute for 7 Shuttle.

And a couple of thousand in a Constitution class could blow 'em all
away.

Whatever that might be. It might be a Bollywood creation, or on the
Haunted Fish-Tank; but in the real world AFAIK it has not yet reached
the viewgraph stage. Dragon is scheduled to be launched later this
year.

It's amusing to see how many Americans hate to see US private enterprise
approaching what US Federal activity can no longer do.

It seems likely that manned Dragon will occur before the Indians orbit
themselves; and that the latter will not be preceded, and perhaps not
followed, by a new US Federal system.

--
(c) John Stockton, nr London, UK. Turnpike v6.05 MIME.
Web URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/ - FAQqish topics, acronyms & links;
Astro stuff via astron-1.htm, gravity0.htm ; quotings.htm, pascal.htm, etc.
No Encoding. Quotes before replies. Snip well. Write clearly. Don't Mail News.

In sci.space.station message 552da09f-a24d-462d-a4b0-7d9e705df1f0@s1g20
00prd.googlegroups.com, Sun, 29 Mar 2009 16:26:18,
posted:
On Mar 29, 9:09*am, Dr J R Stockton wrote:
Seven in a Dragon could substitute for 7 Shuttle.

Possibly...when shuttle is eventually retired.

No need for that; I intended a numerical equivalence, not a functional
replacement. If shuttle's service is extended substantially[*], Dragon
& Shuttle might contribute jointly to a total.
[*] If there is now any significant delay at all, extending the present
Shuttle deadline for the presently expected number of missions seems
essential, if they are not to be launched in undue haste - and we know
what that might bring. And, providing there are no intervening [near-]
disasters; the deadline should certainly be extended sufficiently for
the AMS mission, because that is necessary for the USA to keep her word
to those elsewhere who have invested heavily in AMS[+].

It would be wiser, now, to decree that a certain set of Shuttle missions
are to be performed, at a comfortable rate, without concern for when
they finish. And, possibly, that ISS missions shall then continue, at a
gentle rate, until after another US craft has achieved a successful crew
transfer mission, or at least a manned visit.

[+] Unless it fits a Falcon mission, which I doubt.

--
(c) John Stockton, nr London, UK. Turnpike v6.05.
Web URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/ - w. FAQish topics, links, acronyms
PAS EXE etc : URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/programs/ - see 00index.htm
Dates - miscdate.htm moredate.htm js-dates.htm pas-time.htm critdate.htm etc.