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Easy Ride to Sub Orbital Altitudes



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 1st 20, 03:57 PM posted to sci.space.policy
David Spain
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Posts: 2,901
Default Easy Ride to Sub Orbital Altitudes

Ride a helium balloon to the edge of space in a pressurized & tethered
gondola! No ill effects from 0g free fall for those with queasy stomachs.

Dave

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newsl...ce/ar-BB16aMVM


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  #2  
Old July 1st 20, 04:11 PM posted to sci.space.policy
David Spain
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Posts: 2,901
Default Easy Ride to Sub Orbital Altitudes

On 2020-07-01 10:57 AM, David Spain wrote:
Ride a helium balloon to the edge of space in a pressurized & tethered
gondola! No ill effects from 0g free fall for those with queasy stomachs.

Dave

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newsl...ce/ar-BB16aMVM


I thought helium, the gas is actually "renewable" hydrogen. oh boy.
Helium would be too expensive for this big boy. Can you say reserve
parachute in case of giant flaming ball of gas above you? Yes, yes you
can....

https://thespaceperspective.com/fly/

Dave

  #3  
Old July 1st 20, 06:01 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Dean Markley
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Posts: 515
Default Easy Ride to Sub Orbital Altitudes

On Wednesday, July 1, 2020 at 11:11:19 AM UTC-4, David Spain wrote:
On 2020-07-01 10:57 AM, David Spain wrote:
Ride a helium balloon to the edge of space in a pressurized & tethered
gondola! No ill effects from 0g free fall for those with queasy stomachs.

Dave

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newsl...ce/ar-BB16aMVM


I thought helium, the gas is actually "renewable" hydrogen. oh boy.
Helium would be too expensive for this big boy. Can you say reserve
parachute in case of giant flaming ball of gas above you? Yes, yes you
can....

https://thespaceperspective.com/fly/

Dave


Hydrogen is unlikely to burn at those altitudes. Even down lower, it still needs to exit the balloon and mix with oxygen to burn. The Hindenburg did not burn because of the hydrogen. It was that very flammable envelop made from dope (acetate resin) with aluminum dust.
  #4  
Old July 1st 20, 11:22 PM posted to sci.space.policy
David Spain
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Posts: 2,901
Default Easy Ride to Sub Orbital Altitudes

On 7/1/2020 1:01 PM, Dean Markley wrote:
On Wednesday, July 1, 2020 at 11:11:19 AM UTC-4, David Spain wrote:
On 2020-07-01 10:57 AM, David Spain wrote:
Ride a helium balloon to the edge of space in a pressurized & tethered
gondola! No ill effects from 0g free fall for those with queasy stomachs.

Dave

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newsl...ce/ar-BB16aMVM


I thought helium, the gas is actually "renewable" hydrogen. oh boy.
Helium would be too expensive for this big boy. Can you say reserve
parachute in case of giant flaming ball of gas above you? Yes, yes you
can....

https://thespaceperspective.com/fly/

Dave


Hydrogen is unlikely to burn at those altitudes. Even down lower, it still needs to exit the balloon and mix with oxygen to burn. The Hindenburg did not burn because of the hydrogen. It was that very flammable envelop made from dope (acetate resin) with aluminum dust.

At altitude sure. But you have to get up first and then back down.
Through plentifully oxidizing troposphere.

What you are saying about the Hindenburg: That's like saying gasoline
will extinguish a match. In absence of air that is true. In fact it's
why Molotov cocktails aren't made out of plastic bottles. However, that
doesn't mean I'll be dropping matches into gas cans. Let's get real, the
Hindenburg fireball wasn't made up of acetate resin, even if that is
what triggered it. How many acetate resin fires brought down helium
balloons? I wouldn't want to ride this up through a thunderstorm, would
you? Why does everyone on USENET split hairs?

There is a reserve parachute (partially deployed) as part of the balloon
tether that allows the gondola to detach in an emergency. If there is a
fireball, it would tend to burn upwards and allow the gondola to escape
in the down direction. So I'm not really concerned about being
incinerated in a hydrogen fire, but there are other issues (see below).
Once the balloon is outside the flammable zone, passengers can unfasten
seat belts.

Wonder what prevents that parachute from tangling in the event of an
emergency balloon depress at altitude? As SpaceX discovered, parachute
tech is tricky.

Also what happens if the gondola hits land rather than ocean under
parachute? My achin backside.

I'd like some answers to these questions, but if I got good answers and
the price came down to under $10K, I might consider it.

Dave
  #5  
Old July 2nd 20, 12:58 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Alain Fournier[_3_]
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Posts: 548
Default Easy Ride to Sub Orbital Altitudes

On Jul/1/2020 at 18:22, David Spain wrote :
On 7/1/2020 1:01 PM, Dean Markley wrote:
On Wednesday, July 1, 2020 at 11:11:19 AM UTC-4, David Spain wrote:
On 2020-07-01 10:57 AM, David Spain wrote:
Ride a helium balloon to the edge of space in a pressurized & tethered
gondola! No ill effects from 0g free fall for those with queasy
stomachs.

Dave

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newsl...ce/ar-BB16aMVM



I thought helium, the gas is actually "renewable" hydrogen. oh boy.
Helium would be too expensive for this big boy. Can you say reserve
parachute in case of giant flaming ball of gas above you? Yes, yes you
can....

https://thespaceperspective.com/fly/

Dave


Hydrogen is unlikely to burn at those altitudes.Â* Even down lower, it
still needs to exit the balloon and mix with oxygen to burn.Â* The
Hindenburg did not burn because of the hydrogen.Â* It was that very
flammable envelop made from dope (acetate resin) with aluminum dust.

At altitude sure. But you have to get up first and then back down.
Through plentifully oxidizing troposphere.

What you are saying about the Hindenburg: That's like saying gasoline
will extinguish a match. In absence of air that is true. In fact it's
why Molotov cocktails aren't made out of plastic bottles. However, that
doesn't mean I'll be dropping matches into gas cans. Let's get real, the
Hindenburg fireball wasn't made up of acetate resin, even if that is
what triggered it. How many acetate resin fires brought down helium
balloons? I wouldn't want to ride this up through a thunderstorm, would
you? Why does everyone on USENET split hairs?


The hydrogen of the Hindenburg made a ball of fire going up away from
the passengers. That fireball was very inconvenient and uncomfortable,
but I don't think it killed anyone. Passengers didn't burn to death.
They fell to their death because the envelop had burnt (some actually
jumped to their death, erroneously thinking they had a better chance of
surviving the fall than the fire). If the Hindenburg had been filled
with Helium, the passengers would have fallen even if the Helium would
have only escaped away without burning.


Alain Fournier
  #6  
Old July 2nd 20, 01:23 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Scott Kozel
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Posts: 62
Default Easy Ride to Sub Orbital Altitudes

On Wednesday, July 1, 2020 at 10:57:05 AM UTC-4, David Spain wrote:
Ride a helium balloon to the edge of space in a pressurized & tethered
gondola! No ill effects from 0g free fall for those with queasy stomachs.

Dave

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newsl...ce/ar-BB16aMVM


"Passengers will begin with a two-hour ascent to about 19 miles above the
Earth."

That is far short of outer space, which is commonly regarded as starting at 100
km or 62 miles.
  #7  
Old July 2nd 20, 07:35 AM posted to sci.space.policy
[email protected]
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Posts: 17
Default Easy Ride to Sub Orbital Altitudes

On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 2:23:22 AM UTC+2, Scott Kozel wrote:

That is far short of outer space, which is commonly regarded as starting at 100
km or 62 miles.


It's also a extremely long way away from orbit, which is a matter of velocity not altitude.

Translation: this is another way of parting (rich) fools with their money. They'll get some nice photos, a pair of almost real-gold, almost-astronaut-wings, and a huge bill. And everyone in the real space industry will laugh at them behind their backs. Although some industry insiders might just laugh in their faces.

Regards
Frank
  #8  
Old July 2nd 20, 08:25 AM posted to sci.space.policy
[email protected]
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Posts: 17
Default Easy Ride to Sub Orbital Altitudes

On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 12:22:15 AM UTC+2, David Spain wrote:

What you are saying about the Hindenburg: That's like saying gasoline
will extinguish a match. In absence of air that is true. In fact it's


Google 'don't paint your zeppelins in rocket fuel', its bound to lead you to a rather exhaustive study done by a NASA scientist (worked on the SRB dev program I think).


why Molotov cocktails aren't made out of plastic bottles. However, that
doesn't mean I'll be dropping matches into gas cans. Let's get real, the
Hindenburg fireball wasn't made up of acetate resin, even if that is
what triggered it. How many acetate resin fires brought down helium
balloons? I wouldn't want to ride this up through a thunderstorm, would


The acetate resin doped with alumiunum powder had already destroyed one and maybe two other airships. Zeppelin (the company) was working day and night to find an alternative. The company's lab where the new materials were tested actually survived WWII and the samples were later put in storage. Zeppelin knew there was a problem (a big one) but couldn't afford to shut down its chief source of revenue, or risk losing lucrative potential defense contracts with the Third Reich over a 'petty' safety concern.

Analysis of the very famous Hindenburg plunging to the ground in flames movie revealed a few things to the aforementioned scientist.

(1) The spectacular fireball was in fact the doping catching fire and then setting fire to one of the elements in the aluminium (magnesium I think) that the Hindenburg was made of. Significant but less spectacular fireballs occur when the heat from the burning doping ignites the fuel tanks ( I can't remember if its petrol or diesel).

(2) hydrogen + O2 flames are typically all but invisible and would have been completely invisible on the film of the time, given how it was processed. Analysis of the film through modern filters did turn up a signature of H2+O2 flames in the UV Spectrum. But the flames are gone after the first second of the film clip, most of the hydrogen is either consumed or has already escaped.

(3) the film actually shows a number of people jumping to their deaths while people (at the rear of the Zeppelin) wait until the tail hits the ground before trying to bail.

(4) No source of ignition external to the Hindenburg could be identified. This doesn't rule out all of the exotic weather related possible causes, it just points out that (then) 60 year old film technology can not be trust to capture every detail.


you? Why does everyone on USENET split hairs?


USENET, such as still exists (note I read and post through Google.Groups because I can't get a local ISP to accept NNTP traffic), exists to SPLIT HAIRS. It is the nature of the beast.

There is a reserve parachute (partially deployed) as part of the balloon
tether that allows the gondola to detach in an emergency. If there is a
fireball, it would tend to burn upwards and allow the gondola to escape
in the down direction. So I'm not really concerned about being
incinerated in a hydrogen fire, but there are other issues (see below).
Once the balloon is outside the flammable zone, passengers can unfasten
seat belts.


Modern hydrogen balloons are much different beasts than the 1930s era airships.

Aluminized mylar or some variation on it is used for the envelope. It is a much better hydrogen trap.

And most importantly it isn't reused. A zeppelin was supposed to function like a maritime ship, suitable for thousands of hours and millions of miles with the very, minimum of maintenance. A modern hydrogen balloon probably isn't even legal to reuse.

This company is separating the problem out, the expensive bit is the gondola which is reusable. The balloon can be thrown away or recycled into party balloons or returned to the manufacturer for whatever....


Wonder what prevents that parachute from tangling in the event of an
emergency balloon depress at altitude? As SpaceX discovered, parachute
tech is tricky.


Tricky, but not impossible. How many space capsules have returned to Earth without tangled chute lines. How many military cargo drops have done the same. More to teh point what is the established practice for dealing with a difficult 'chute . Sky divers don't like doing it, but when they're in trouble they will cut it off and deploy the backup. If its a rented or loaner chute the owner might be annoyed but at least you get to keep your knees from being permanently relocated to where your shoulder blades should be.


Also what happens if the gondola hits land rather than ocean under
parachute? My achin backside.


Airbags might be an idea. Or dam good shock absorbers on the seats. For a parachute landing like that shouldn't the seats be reclined? I.e.: aching back.

I'd like some answers to these questions, but if I got good answers and
the price came down to under $10K, I might consider it.

Dave


Not tempted, even if it dropped below R10K (R = Rands, currently trading at R 17.5 to the US$). If I am going to go extreme ballooning then it needs to be all the way, like the space-jumper dude did, with the same means of returning to Earth (which would of cause completely null-and-void any life insurance I might still have - petty little South African rule, sky diving allows your insurer to cancel your life insurance AND keep the money). Other than that the only other ballooning I want to do is 60 feet altitude fly-overs of the Serengiti. Now that is awesome. Unless you happen to book your flight on the same day as an unexpected storm that forces your balloon down in the middle of hungry predator country.

If I'm going to space I'm going to space the proper way, and I'm not coming back.

Regards
Frank
  #9  
Old July 2nd 20, 08:51 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Niels Jørgen Kruse[_2_]
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Posts: 23
Default Easy Ride to Sub Orbital Altitudes

wrote:

USENET, such as still exists (note I read and post through Google.Groups
because I can't get a local ISP to accept NNTP traffic), exists to SPLIT
HAIRS. It is the nature of the beast.


Try a free NNTP server like nntp.aioe.org' no user name / password, no
registration, just plug the server name into your USENET client.

--
Mvh./Regards, Niels Jørgen Kruse, Denmark
 




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