Life common, intelligent life rare

Matt Giwer wrote:
[...]
I mean if one dolphin is lost to a net then if intelligent they
should be able to pass the word to avoid fishing boats entirely. But
unless dolphins are avoiding all boats and there are billions of them
hiding from us they don't seem to get the idea. They don't come up with
ways to avoid it. They don't seem to learn from the death of dolphins
from their own pod -- or whatever it is called.
[...]

Slightly OT:

The dolphin example above is poor. Dolphin trainers liken their dolphins
to that of playful young human children. They have some intelligence and
some awareness and a social structure.

The getting tangled in fishing nets is partly lazy feeding by them on
the enclosed fish. They may well get confused by the same trick that
keeps the fish blithely swimming along near the mouth of the net yet
having no inclination to easily escape. Perhaps they think the net is
stationary and that they are in an ocean current?

Then when the net is hauled in, all exits suddenly get closed...


A very easy and cheap escape that appears successful is to have a trap
door in the top of the net. The dolphins escape before drowning while
the fish stay netted. Of course, fishing nets are too expensive to be
changed...


("So-long, and thanks for all the fish..." (:-((

Regards,
Martin

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Martin 53N 1W wrote:
[...]

Then when the net is hauled in, all exits suddenly get closed...


A very easy and cheap escape that appears successful is to have a trap
door in the top of the net. The dolphins escape before drowning while
the fish stay netted. Of course, fishing nets are too expensive to be
changed...

I'll rephrase that slightly:

"Of course, fishing nets are /supposedly/ too expensive to be changed..."

(OT thinly veiled heaped sarcasm against fishing politics, policies and
practice (:-((


("So-long, and thanks for all the fish..." (:-((

Regards,
Martin



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Matt Giwer wrote:
Martin 53N 1W wrote:

Matt Giwer wrote:
[...]

I mean if one dolphin is lost to a net then if intelligent they
should be able to pass the word to avoid fishing boats entirely. But
[...]

The word has been passed around that fishing boats mean an easy big free
meal. There's just certain dangers in pilfering from a trap...

[...]

Slightly OT:

The dolphin example above is poor. Dolphin trainers liken their
dolphins to that of playful young human children. They have some
intelligence and some awareness and a social structure.

[...]

I agree there are ways of explaining it away but there is no need to
explain anything away unless intelligent is assumed going into the
explanation. Occam says, not intelligent is the simplest explanation.

Agreed Occam's razor.

In this instance, the dolphin example is good for argument but poor for
your arguing. Dolphins show too many _frivolous_ creatively playful
antics to not be credited with some spare intelligence beyond that
needed for mere survival.


A good question is how to define the distinction between "intelligence"
and just complex "reflex/programmed responses".

A second question is why bother with intelligence at all? All that
Humans seem to use it for is to play petty politics to get one up over
whatever competing neighbours in ever more elaborate ways...


Regards,
Martin

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---------- http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en-gb/concept.php3

"Martin 53N 1W" wrote in
message ...
Matt Giwer wrote:
Martin 53N 1W wrote:

Matt Giwer wrote:
[...]

I mean if one dolphin is lost to a net then if
intelligent they
should be able to pass the word to avoid fishing boats
entirely. But
[...]

The word has been passed around that fishing boats mean an
easy big free
meal. There's just certain dangers in pilfering from a
trap...

[...]

Slightly OT:

The dolphin example above is poor. Dolphin trainers
liken their
dolphins to that of playful young human children. They
have some
intelligence and some awareness and a social structure.

[...]

I agree there are ways of explaining it away but
there is no need to
explain anything away unless intelligent is assumed
going into the
explanation. Occam says, not intelligent is the simplest
explanation.

Agreed Occam's razor.

In this instance, the dolphin example is good for argument
but poor for
your arguing. Dolphins show too many _frivolous_
creatively playful
antics to not be credited with some spare intelligence
beyond that
needed for mere survival.


A good question is how to define the distinction between
"intelligence"
and just complex "reflex/programmed responses".

A second question is why bother with intelligence at all?
All that
Humans seem to use it for is to play petty politics to get
one up over
whatever competing neighbours in ever more elaborate
ways...

Some good points here, particularly, the difficulty of
distinguishing between intelligence and just complex
"reflex/programmed responses". It only takes a small number
of inbuilt "rules" to result in mimicking intelligent or
planned behavior, viz. the formation patterns birds fly,
without collisions etc. And there certainly is no
justification for developing intelligence when one notices
the zillions of bacteria and beetles around, which have been
around for many billions of years without suffering any
problems making a living.

The point's extension to humans is very tempting as far as
necessity is concerned. A few years ago I might have said
that's nonsense, clearly intelligence is what has brought
humankind to the very peak of the animal world, and so
forth--looking around at the world today, I am definitely
not sure such arguments mean anything anymore. As you say,
it may even be hurting us! Could this be one more reason
ETIs have never made it here in the last several millennia?
Does some peak in intelligence limit societal lifetimes,
bringing only more death and destruction. What would Fermi
say? Regards, ...tonyC

Regards,
Martin

--
---------- OS? What's that?!
- Martin - To most people, "Operating System" is unknown
& strange.
- 53N 1W - Mandrake 10.0.1 GNU Linux - An OS for
Supercomputers & PCs
----------
http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en-gb/concept.php3

Martin 53N 1W wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:

Martin 53N 1W wrote:

Matt Giwer wrote:
[...]

I mean if one dolphin is lost to a net then if intelligent they
should be able to pass the word to avoid fishing boats entirely. But

[...]

The word has been passed around that fishing boats mean an easy big free
meal. There's just certain dangers in pilfering from a trap...

Would not unintelligent have the same result? Thus again assuming
intelligence and explaining away the apparent absense of it.

[...]

Slightly OT:

The dolphin example above is poor. Dolphin trainers liken their
dolphins to that of playful young human children. They have some
intelligence and some awareness and a social structure.

[...]

I agree there are ways of explaining it away but there is no need
to explain anything away unless intelligent is assumed going into the
explanation. Occam says, not intelligent is the simplest explanation.

Agreed Occam's razor.

In this instance, the dolphin example is good for argument but poor for
your arguing. Dolphins show too many _frivolous_ creatively playful
antics to not be credited with some spare intelligence beyond that
needed for mere survival.

There are also people who "see" behavior which does not exist. Are
puppies and kittens more intelligent than dogs and cats. We call it
playing but it is developing skills needed in hunting. People only say
smart in dolphin until it became popular to see intelligence. Decades
of attempts to understand their "language" or communicate in ours have
been fruitless whereas, intelligent or not, gorillas appear to have
the basics of or on the verge of intelligence.

A lot used to be made of dolphins pushing swimmers who got into
trouble towards shore. Then there were confirmed observations of
pushing them away from shore. Someone noted the pushing is the same as
mating behavior.

Women are discouraged from becoming dolphin handlers as the males
will treat them as one of their females and try to mate with them. I
realize human women are so attractive even slime dripping insectoids
want to mate with them but you would an intelligent dolphin would be
able to identify their own by other than scent.

A good question is how to define the distinction between "intelligence"
and just complex "reflex/programmed responses".

The idea of programmed is rather out of date. Species specific is in
vogue. How do kittens learn to play with balls of yarn or unroll
toilet paper as it cannot be "programmed" behavior. How is chasing a
ball programmed into dogs?

A second question is why bother with intelligence at all? All that
Humans seem to use it for is to play petty politics to get one up over
whatever competing neighbours in ever more elaborate ways...

I agree there is no scientific definition of intelligence but in
choosing a surgeon I want neither the village idiot nor a dolphin.
Whatever the political issues surrounding intelligence we can't just
dismiss it. There is smart and the ability to learn and to understand
words as in dogs while at least the last one and maybe the last two
are absent in cats.

I first mentioned personal survival, the one place where intelligence
sort of has to be expressed if it is of any value at all and spread by
natural selection. An easy meal but not smart enough to avoid the net.
That is simply smart not talking intelligent yet. Or not smart enough
to only go after those the net misses. What it shows is an inability
to comprehend the consequences of the net after having observed it. I
have known a dog that appeared to know the consequences of its actions.

--
Focus upon the President rather than the government
appeals to the poorly educated American majority.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3254

Matt Giwer wrote:
Martin 53N 1W wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:
Martin 53N 1W wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:
[...]

The word has been passed around that fishing boats mean an easy big
free meal. There's just certain dangers in pilfering from a trap...

Would not unintelligent have the same result? Thus again assuming
intelligence and explaining away the apparent absense of it.

Unintelligent wouldn't even notice it. A case of greedy curiosity
killing the dolphin?


[...]

smart in dolphin until it became popular to see intelligence. Decades of
attempts to understand their "language" or communicate in ours have been
fruitless ...

At what level? Shakespeare no. "I'm here", and "I'm dolphin #9" yes.


A lot used to be made of dolphins pushing swimmers who got into
trouble towards shore. Then there were confirmed observations of pushing
them away from shore. Someone noted the pushing is the same as mating
behavior.

Sounds like urban legend...


Women are discouraged from becoming dolphin handlers as the males
will treat them as one of their females and try to mate with them.

Sounds like more urban legend.


A good question is how to define the distinction between
"intelligence" and just complex "reflex/programmed responses".

The idea of programmed is rather out of date. Species specific is in
[...]

The 'nature' vs 'nurture' debate continues unabated.


A second question is why bother with intelligence at all? All that
Humans seem to use it for is to play petty politics to get one up over
whatever competing neighbours in ever more elaborate ways...

[...]
I first mentioned personal survival, the one place where
intelligence sort of has to be expressed if it is of any value at all
and spread by natural selection. An easy meal but not smart enough to
avoid the net. ...

One 'working description' of 'intelligence' is to try to determine how
well or how accurately it models the perceived environment and thence
how useful it is to aid survival and promote prorecreation. Too much or
too little intelligence for a given environment is likely a bad thing.


Well tuned traffic lights appear 'intelligent'. A policeman on traffic
duty with waving arms will quickly get 'bored'... (A few 'reflexes' vs
the same task via a few billion 'reflexes'...)

(Mmmm, very Zen-like (:-))


Regards,
Martin

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- 53N 1W - Mandrake 10.0.1 GNU Linux - An OS for Supercomputers & PCs
---------- http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en-gb/concept.php3

Matt Giwer wrote:
Martin 53N 1W wrote:
[...]

At what level? Shakespeare no. "I'm here", and "I'm dolphin #9" yes.

Any communication at all at any level has been a failure. There has
been zero success. Standard pack signals have been identified such as
warnings of threats and such.
[...]

Any recent refs/papers for this?

Regards,
Martin

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---------- http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en-gb/concept.php3

Martin 53N 1W wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:

Martin 53N 1W wrote:

[...]

At what level? Shakespeare no. "I'm here", and "I'm dolphin #9" yes.

Any communication at all at any level has been a failure. There
has been zero success. Standard pack signals have been identified such
as warnings of threats and such.

[...]

Any recent refs/papers for this?

No. Been a long time. The absense of papers on recent successes
should be enough. There should be at least debates as with gorillas
appearing regularly. I haven't come across anything. If there had been
something smelling of success it would be common knowledge in a
newsgroup like this.

--
Now that AIPAC is officially an espionage arm of Israel
will it still be sacrosanct in Washington?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3247

Matt Giwer wrote:
Martin 53N 1W wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:
Martin 53N 1W wrote:
[...]
At what level? Shakespeare no. "I'm here", and "I'm dolphin #9" yes.
[...]
Any recent refs/papers for this?

No. Been a long time. The absense of papers on recent successes
[...]


See:
http://www.space.com/searchforlife/o...ce_041028.html

Intelligence Gathering: The Study of How the Brain Evolves Offers
Insight into the Mind

By Seth Shostak
SETI Institute
posted: 28 October 2004

###
.... "The smarter cetaceans may not be far behind us; they can do a lot
of the things that only humans and great apes can do. They might be a
good example of a complex, but largely non-technological intelligence."

What does this show? We’re not closely related to dolphins in an
evolutionary sense. And yet they developed intelligence comparable to
our own. That suggests that there is real survival value in
intelligence, and that there are many ways that nature can produce it.

"Here you have four or five different animal groups that, from an
evolutionary standpoint, are very different," says Marino. "But there’s
clearly a higher order selection effect that has created similarities in
function. It might be the consequence of some aspect of social interaction."

"And keep in mind," Marino points out, "brains don’t all just get bigger
over time. You’d better have a very good reason for having a big brain,
because they’re metabolically very expensive. You’ll have the brain that
you need, no more."
[...]
###


Regards,
Martin


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- Martin - To most people, "Operating System" is unknown & strange.
- 53N 1W - Mandrake 10.0.1 GNU Linux - An OS for Supercomputers & PCs
---------- http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en-gb/concept.php3

Martin 53N 1W wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:

Martin 53N 1W wrote:

Matt Giwer wrote:

Martin 53N 1W wrote:

[...]

At what level? Shakespeare no. "I'm here", and "I'm dolphin #9" yes.

[...]
Any recent refs/papers for this?

No. Been a long time. The absense of papers on recent successes

[...]

See:
http://www.space.com/searchforlife/o...ce_041028.html

Intelligence Gathering: The Study of How the Brain Evolves Offers
Insight into the Mind

By Seth Shostak
SETI Institute
posted: 28 October 2004

###
.... "The smarter cetaceans may not be far behind us; they can do a lot
of the things that only humans and great apes can do. They might be a
good example of a complex, but largely non-technological intelligence."

I have differentiated between smart and intelligent in a manner I
thought clear. I have not questioned they are smart. I have pointed
out a clear example of the inability to abstract knowledge from the
experience of others of their kind. It should be normal that a pod
would lose only one member before the word of the danger is known to
all its members.

--
Focus upon the President rather than the government
appeals to the poorly educated American majority.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3254