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Why are most galaxies and solar systems 'flat'?



 
 
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  #11  
Old October 25th 03, 01:47 PM
MDJ
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Default Why are most galaxies and solar systems 'flat'?

I think you've probably hit the nail on the head as regards one of the
weaknesses of the big bang theory. How can order be created out of an
explosion? Are there really any stars forming today? The universe seems to
be decaying and not evolving as evolution dictates.

For more of these questions answered, click on the link below. I am not in
any way associated with the website below.

http://tinyurl.com/iwpe

There is a lot of reading in the website above and many many articles, but
the main Question and Answers section is where all the info is.

Clear Skies


MarkDJ


"Richard Dickison" wrote in message
...
Why are most galaxies and solar systems 'flat'? If there is a cloud of
dust/gas that starts to coalesce around a localized density in the middle

of
the dust/gas, it seems it would attract from all 3 dimensions equally. But
galaxies and solar systems attract primarily in a single plane. What
happened to all the debris above/below the plane?

I understand there will probably be an unequal distribution of matter
surrounding the central object and there will consequently be a resultant
angular momentum after a while. But that doesn't seem to explain why

there
still isn't debris spiraling in from above/below the primary plane.





  #12  
Old October 25th 03, 04:57 PM
Martin Frey
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Default Why are most galaxies and solar systems 'flat'?

"MDJ" wrote:

I think you've probably hit the nail on the head as regards one of the
weaknesses of the big bang theory. How can order be created out of an
explosion? Are there really any stars forming today? The universe seems to
be decaying and not evolving as evolution dictates.


I am constantly amazed at how delicately the gravel on the beach at
Dungeness is sorted into size by the random crashing of enormous
waves. Order can and frequently does come out of chaos

Cheers

Martin

--------------
Martin Frey
N 51 02 E 0 47
--------------
  #13  
Old October 25th 03, 08:27 PM
Gavin Whittaker
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Default Why are most galaxies and solar systems 'flat'?

MDJ writted:
: I think you've probably hit the nail on the head as regards one of the
: weaknesses of the big bang theory.

The shape of galaxies is rather well understood, and very well
modelled. I hardly think it's a problem or a weakness in big bang
theory.

: How can order be created out of an
: explosion?

Entropy has to increase in a closed system (Second law of
thermodynamics). That does not preclude regions within that system from
becoming more ordered, just that the order has to be offset by an
increase in disorder elsewhere within the system.

: Are there really any stars forming today?

Yes. Take a look at the Hubble photo archive for examples.

: The universe seems to
: be decaying and not evolving as evolution dictates.

Which dictat of evolution is that, precisely?


Gavin.
  #14  
Old October 25th 03, 08:46 PM
MDJ
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Default Why are most galaxies and solar systems 'flat'?


"Gavin Whittaker" wrote in message
...
MDJ writted:



: Are there really any stars forming today?

Yes. Take a look at the Hubble photo archive for examples.


The 'eagle nebula' and other similar gas complexes such as the 'horse-head
nebula' in Orion are favourites since they show more than one type of
nebula.
These regions are called dark, reflection, and emission nebulae.

a.. Dark nebulae are made mostly of dust.

b.. Emission nebulae are fluorescent regions of gas glowing in the
presence of embedded stars.

c.. Reflection nebulae are cold un-ionized gas.

When dark nebulae collide with emission nebulae, features like those noted
in the HST image result. The dust pushes its way through the hot gas. Gas
along the front edge of the collision compresses and glows hotter. This
results in the whitish appearing areas at the edges of the dark 'fingers' of
dust.

I presume that the temperatures of these areas are near 10,000 K so that
they glow like the surfaces of stars of similar temperature, that is, white.
Gas at such temperatures will quickly disperse and there is no chance of it
forming stars.




  #15  
Old October 25th 03, 08:52 PM
MDJ
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Default Why are most galaxies and solar systems 'flat'?


"Gavin Whittaker" wrote in message
...
MDJ writted:

: How can order be created out of an
: explosion?

Entropy has to increase in a closed system (Second law of
thermodynamics). That does not preclude regions within that system from
becoming more ordered, just that the order has to be offset by an
increase in disorder elsewhere within the system.


I think the article below should cover your questions regarding entropy.

http://tinyurl.com/schm

The Second Law of Thermodynamic
Question 1: Open Systems
‘Someone recently asked me about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, stating that
they thought it was irrelevant to creation/evolution because the earth is
not an isolated system since the sun is constantly pumping in more energy.

Answer 1:
The Second Law can be stated in many different ways, e.g.:

a.. that the entropy of the universe tends towards a maximum (in simple
terms, entropy is a measure of disorder)

b.. usable energy is running out

c.. information tends to get scrambled

d.. order tends towards disorder

e.. a random jumble won’t organize itself

It also depends on the type of system:

a.. An isolated system exchanges neither matter nor energy with its
surroundings. The total entropy of an isolated system never decreases. The
universe is an isolated system, so is running down — see If God created the
universe, then who Created God? for what this implies.

b.. A closed system exchanges energy but not matter with its surroundings.
In this case, the 2nd Law is stated such that the total entropy of the
system and surroundings never decreases.

c.. An open system exchanges both matter and energy with its surroundings.
Certainly, many evolutionists claim that the 2nd Law doesn’t apply to open
systems. But this is false. Dr John Ross of Harvard University states:

… there are no known violations of the second law of thermodynamics.
Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems, but the second law
applies equally well to open systems. … There is somehow associated with
the field of far-from-equilibrium thermodynamics the notion that the second
law of thermodynamics fails for such systems. It is important to make sure
that this error does not perpetuate itself.1

Open systems still have a tendency to disorder. There are special cases
where local order can increase at the expense of greater disorder elsewhere.
One case is crystallization, covered in Question 2 below. The other case is
programmed machinery, that directs energy into maintaining and increasing
complexity, at the expense of increased disorder elsewhere. Living things
have such energy-converting machinery to make the complex structures of
life.

The open systems argument does not help evolution. Raw energy cannot
generate the specified complex information in living things. Undirected
energy just speeds up destruction. Just standing out in the sun won’t make
you more complex — the human body lacks the mechanisms to harness raw solar
energy. If you stood in the sun too long, you would get skin cancer, because
the sun’s undirected energy will cause mutations. (Mutations are copying
errors in the genes that nearly always lose information). Similarly,
undirected energy flow though an alleged primordial soup will break down the
complex molecules of life faster than they are formed.

It’s like trying to run a car by pouring petrol on it and setting it alight.
No, a car will run only if the energy in petrol is harnessed via the
pistons, crankshaft, etc. A bull in a china shop is also raw energy. But if
the bull were harnessed to a generator, and the electricity directed a
pottery-producing machine, then its energy could be used to make things.

To make proteins, a cell uses the information coded in the DNA and a very
complex decoding machine. In the lab, chemists must use sophisticated
machinery to make the building blocks combine in the right way. Raw energy
would result in wrong combinations and even destruction of the building
blocks.

I suggest that thermodynamic arguments are excellent when done properly, and
the ‘open systems’ canard is anticipated. Otherwise I suggest concentrating
on information content. The information in even the simplest organism would
take about a thousand pages to write out. Human beings have 500 times as
much information as this. It is a flight of fantasy to think that undirected
processes could generate this huge amount of information, just as it would
be to think that a cat walking on a keyboard could write a book.

For more information on mutation, variation and information, see our
Question and Answer pages on these topics, or Refuting Evolution (above
right).

Return to top
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Question 2: What about crystals?
To quote one anti-creationist, Boyce Rensberger:

If the Second Law truly prohibited local emergence of increased order,
there would be no ice cubes. The greater orderliness of water molecules in
ice crystals than in the liquid state is purchased with the expenditure of
energy at the generator that made the electricity to run the freezer. And
that makes it legal under the Second Law.2

Answer 2:
Rensberger is ignorant of the creationist responses to this argument. An
energy source is not enough to produce the specified complexity of life. The
energy must be directed in some way. The ice cubes of his example would not
form if the electrical energy was just wired into liquid water! Instead, we
would get lots of heat, and the water breaking up into simpler components,
hydrogen and oxygen.

The ice example is thermodynamically irrelevant to the origin of life. When
ice freezes, it releases heat energy into the environment. This causes an
entropy increase in the surroundings. If the temperature is low enough, this
entropy increase is greater than the loss of entropy in forming the crystal.
But the formation of proteins and nucleic acids from amino acids and
nucleotides not only lowers their entropy, but it removes heat energy (and
entropy) from their surroundings. Thus ordinary amino acids and nucleotides
will not spontaneously form proteins and nucleic acids at any temperature.

Rensberger also fails to distinguish between order and complexity. Crystals
are ordered; life is complex. To illustrate: a periodic (repeating) signal,
e.g. ABABABABABAB, is an example of order. However, it carries little
information: only ‘AB’, and ‘print 6 times’.

A crystal is analogous to that sequence; it is a regular, repeating network
of atoms. Like that sequence, a crystal contains little information: the
co-ordinates of a few atoms (i.e. those which make up the unit cell), and
instructions ‘more of the same’ x times. If a crystal is broken, smaller but
otherwise identical crystals result. Conversely, breaking proteins, DNA or
living structures results in destruction, because the information in them is
greater than in their parts.

A crystal forms because this regular arrangement, determined by directional
forces in the atoms, has the lowest energy. Thus the maximum amount of heat
is released into the surroundings, so the overall entropy is increased.

Random signals, e.g. WEKJHDF BK LKGJUES KIYFV NBUY, are not ordered, but
complex. But a random signal contains no useful information. A non-random
aperiodic (non-repeating) signal — specified complexity — e.g. ‘I love you’,
may carry useful information. However, it would be useless unless the
receiver of the information understood the English language convention. The
amorous thoughts have no relationship to that letter sequence apart from the
agreed language convention. The language convention is imposed onto the
letter sequence.

Proteins and DNA are also non-random aperiodic sequences. The sequences are
not caused by the properties of the constituent amino acids and nucleotides
themselves. This is a huge contrast to crystal structures, which are caused
by the properties of their constituents. The sequences of DNA and proteins
must be imposed from outside by some intelligent process. Proteins are coded
in DNA, and the DNA code comes from pre-existing codes, not by random
processes.

Many scientific experiments show that when their building blocks are simply
mixed and chemically combined, a random sequence results. To make a protein,
scientists need to add one unit at a time, and each unit requires a number
of chemical steps to ensure that the wrong type of reaction doesn’t occur.
The same goes for preparing a DNA strand in a correct sequence. See Q&A:
Origin of Life.

The evolutionary origin-of-life expert Leslie Orgel confirmed that there are
three distinct concepts: order, randomness and specified complexity:

Living things are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals
such as granite fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity;
mixtures of random polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity.
[L. Orgel, The Origins of Life, John Wiley, NY, 1973, p. 189]

Even the simplest known self-reproducing life form (Mycoplasma) has 482
genes, and it must parasitize more complex organisms to obtain the building
blocks it cannot manufacture itself. The simplest organism that could exist
in theory would need at least 256 genes, and it’s doubtful whether it could
survive.3 See How Simple Can Life Be?

Return to top
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Question 3: Did the 2nd Law begin at the Fall?
Answer 3:
No, I would not say that entropy/Second Law of Thermodynamics began at the
Fall. The Second Law is responsible for a number of good things which
involve increases in entropy, so are ‘decay’ processes in the thermodynamic
sense but maybe not what most people would imagine are decay:

a.. solar heating of the earth (heat transfer from a hot object to a cold
one is the classical case of the Second Law in action),

b.. walking (requires the highly entropic phenomenon of friction,
otherwise Adam and Eve would have slipped as they walked with God in Eden!),

c.. breathing (based on air moving from high pressure to low pressure,
producing a more disordered equalized concentration of molecules),

d.. digestion (breaking down large complex food molecules into their
simple building blocks),

e.. baking a cake (mixing the ingredients produces a lot of disorder),
etc.

What is contrary to Scripture is death of nephesh animals before sin, and
suffering (or ‘groaning in travail’ (Rom. 8:20–22)). It is more likely that
God withdrew some of His sustaining power at the Fall. He still sustains the
universe (Col. 1:17) otherwise it would cease to exist. But most of the time
He doesn’t sustain it in the way that He prevented the Israelites’ shoes and
clothes from wearing out during the 40 years in the wilderness (Dt. 29:5).
But this special case may have been the rule rather than the exception
before the Fall. Return to top
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

References and notes
1.. John Ross, Chemical and Engineering News, July 27, 1980, p. 40; cited
in Duane Gish, Creation Scientists Answer their Critics Institute for
Creation Research, 1993. Return to text.

2.. Boyce Rensberger, ‘How Science Responds When Creationists Criticize
Evolution’, Washington Post, 8 Jan 1997. See Response by AiG. Return to
Text.

3.. For a good discussion on thermodynamics; open, closed and isolated
systems, order vs. complexity; and other difficulties for evolutionary
origin of life scenarios, see Charles B. Thaxton, Walter L. Bradley and
Roger L. Olsen, The Mystery of Life’s Origin, 1984, Foundation for Thought
and Ethics, Lewis & Stanley, Dallas, TX (above right. The relevant chapters
are online) . See also detailed response to an evolutionist. Return to Text.


  #16  
Old October 25th 03, 10:34 PM
Gavin Whittaker
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Default Why are most galaxies and solar systems 'flat'?

Gavin Whittaker writted:

: Entropy has to increase in a closed system

oops. That should be isolated, not closed. I slap students for less
than that.
  #17  
Old October 25th 03, 11:18 PM
Mark McIntyre
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Default Why are most galaxies and solar systems 'flat'?

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 13:47:51 +0100, in uk.sci.astronomy , "MDJ"
wrote:

I think you've probably hit the nail on the head as regards one of the
weaknesses of the big bang theory. How can order be created out of an
explosion?


Think about this for approximately ten seconds, and you'll realise
how. What happens /after/ the explosion? Ever dropped a pebble into
water and watched the chaos return to order?

Are there really any stars forming today?


Yes. Take a look pretty much anywhere in the skies' and you can see
it.

The universe seems to be decaying and not evolving as evolution dictates.


Who says its decaying? What makes you think evolutionary theory
applies to inanimate matter? What do you think evolution means? Ever
heard of entropy?

For more of these questions answered,


Read any decent science book, instead of pseudoscience based on
people's understandable desire to avoid having to face difficult
questions. Like for instance "is it possible that people long ago
misunderstood the Word because they lacked the necessary knowledge to
understand?".

There's no need to rely on mythology to explain what you see around
you.


--
Mark McIntyre
CLC FAQ http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
CLC readme: http://www.angelfire.com/ms3/bchambless0/welcome_to_clc.html


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  #18  
Old October 25th 03, 11:26 PM
Mark McIntyre
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Default Why are most galaxies and solar systems 'flat'?

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 20:52:37 +0100, in uk.sci.astronomy , "MDJ"
wrote:


"Gavin Whittaker" wrote in message

Entropy has to increase in a closed system (Second law of
thermodynamics). That does not preclude regions within that system from
becoming more ordered, just that the order has to be offset by an
increase in disorder elsewhere within the system.


I think the article below should cover your questions regarding entropy.


FYI, we don't /have/ any questions regarding entropy, I suspect the
posters here understand it pretty well. Pseudoscience like your link
don't help anyone else who might want information.

The open systems argument does not help evolution. Raw energy cannot
generate the specified complex information in living things.


Proof please.

Undirected energy just speeds up destruction.


Hmm, undirected sunlight lands randomly on plants, yep, definitely not
causing anything to grow there is it? Oh, sorry, according to 'your'
theory, the sun is a big searchlight or something being directed at
us, so you get out of that one. Hmm...

Just standing out in the sun won’t make
you more complex — the human body lacks the mechanisms to harness raw solar
energy.


Actually this is merely false. Try standing in a place without much
solar energy for a while (like eg on the night side of Pluto), and see
if its lack harms you. Like all animals, we have the ability to use
sunlight to warm our bodies, and indeed reptiles rely on it.

If you stood in the sun too long, you would get skin cancer,


And if you ate cheese and pickle for too long, your friends would all
stand upwind of you in case you either a) burst, or b) broke wind.

Similarly,
undirected energy flow though an alleged primordial soup will break down the
complex molecules of life faster than they are formed.


Its a cute but wrong argument. As it happens, this has been tested
experimentally and it works.

--
Mark McIntyre
CLC FAQ http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
CLC readme: http://www.angelfire.com/ms3/bchambless0/welcome_to_clc.html


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  #19  
Old October 26th 03, 02:18 AM
MDJ
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Default Why are most galaxies and solar systems 'flat'?


"Mark McIntyre" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 13:47:51 +0100, in uk.sci.astronomy , "MDJ"
wrote:

I think you've probably hit the nail on the head as regards one of the
weaknesses of the big bang theory. How can order be created out of an
explosion?


Think about this for approximately ten seconds, and you'll realise
how. What happens /after/ the explosion? Ever dropped a pebble into
water and watched the chaos return to order?


I watched it return to a flat nothingness so if there was a big bang then of
course the explosion would die off and we would be left with nothing again.
Your analogy is flawed in that the pebble is dropping into water that has
already got gravity, viscosity and it's elements already there in the first
place for the pebble to interact with. Wheras you are saying that out of an
explosion of nothing, this world and universe came into being!!! Come on,
your failed logic and reasoning is incomprehensible.

Are there really any stars forming today?


Yes. Take a look pretty much anywhere in the skies' and you can see
it.


Positive proof of before and after photos would be helpful. I've already
explained that the superheated gas explosions that we are seeing in the
eagle nebula and others simply cannot form stars as the gas at such
temperatures quickly disperses. If you have a look at some of the recent
astro news

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1987449.stm

http://www.nature.com/nsu/980723/980723-4.html

there is talk now that "star formation may be drawing to an end".



The universe seems to be decaying and not evolving as evolution dictates.


Who says its decaying? What makes you think evolutionary theory
applies to inanimate matter? What do you think evolution means? Ever
heard of entropy?


Who says it's decaying? see above articles and search for yourself. All
reports of star formation are merely conjecture and "educated guesses" and
we all know those (Mr Tony Blair). Start reading into these reports from a
young-earth standpoint and you can see how led astray these reports are.
Astronomers are trying to explain away facts with more unproven theories
which come from the fact that they are trying to explain what they see and
tally it up with the Big Bang.

MDJ


  #20  
Old October 26th 03, 02:20 AM
MDJ
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Default Why are most galaxies and solar systems 'flat'?


"Mark McIntyre" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 13:47:51 +0100, in uk.sci.astronomy , "MDJ"
wrote:


The universe seems to be decaying and not evolving as evolution dictates.


Who says its decaying? What makes you think evolutionary theory
applies to inanimate matter? What do you think evolution means? Ever
heard of entropy?


Also see this article...

http://www.nature.com/nsu/010517/010517-6.html


 




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