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Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?



 
 
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  #21  
Old October 10th 03, 02:15 AM
Thomas McDonald
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Default Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?

"Rich" wrote in message
...


In infinite wisdom Tom Kirke answered:
====================================


WAS THERE A CIVILIZATION
THAT EXISTED 13,000 YEARS AGO?


By definition civilization requires cities, so no, there
was no civilization 11kBCE.


I'm not sure about this (this being that civilizations require cities).

civ·i·li·za·tion (sv-l-zshn)
n.

1. An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development
in
human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the
extensive
use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of
complex
political and social institutions.
2. The type of culture and society developed by a particular nation or
region
or in a particular epoch: Mayan civilization; the civilization of
ancient
Rome.
3. The act or process of civilizing or reaching a civilized state.
4. Cultural or intellectual refinement; good taste.
5. Modern society with its conveniences: returned to civilization after
camping in the mountains.

It seems a very debatable point.

TSM: Rich,

This thread originated in sci.archaeology. (Our Eddie hijacked the
thread in order to...well, do whatever it is he thinks he is doing.)

In anthropology, of which archaeology is a subset in the US at least,
'civilization' has to do with a level of societal development that includes
a political/religious/economic heirarchy more ramified than a chiefdom
(which usually has only three or four 'levels'). Normally, this requires at
least one city to support this heirarchy, and the regional organization that
the city needs to survive. In return, the city provides political
organization, economic stability, defence, specialized religious and
artifact manufacture, etc.

A general dictionary definition is inadequate to a discussion requiring
technical understanding of terminology.

There were cultures, some
of them more advanced than others, but no civilizations.


I think you have it the wrong way round myself. The above is from
dictionary.com
and I think it's got it right.

TSM: Not for this discussion; unless you prefer imrecision and flames.

If you disagree point to a city that existed then.


Trivial (for prehistoric cities, a category you call a null set).

http://abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s768954.htm

Ruins of 4,300-year-old prehistoric city found in China

Chinese archaeologists have discovered the ruins of a prehistoric
city dating back an estimated 4,300 years in southwest Sichuan province,
state press said.

The find provided evidence that the region along the upper reaches of
the Yangtze River, with the Chengdu Plain at the core, played an
important role in the origin and development of Chinese civilization,
experts said.

TSM: So what? Jericho is much older, and has been mostly continually lived
in.

-------------------------------------

http://www.telesterion.com/catal1.htm

CATAL HUYUK

The Temple City of Prehistoric Anatolia

[...]

The oldest layer of Catal Huyuk yet excavated (virgin soil has not been
reached) is reliably carbon dated to 6,500 B.C,, and reveals a thriving,
completely developed and planned, city.

They existed, their remains exist today.

Rich

TSM: Nope. I've studied the literature on Catal Huyuk, seen many of its
artifacts, and visited the Smithsonian's traveling exhibit on it. It was
large for its time, but it was a village. While the houses were built to a
general plan, they were each built by their owners, not by specialist
builders. There is no public space at all, and religious spaces are found
in each house, not in any "temple". (The "Temple City" business is wrong on
both points.) There was no agriculture requiring public works or major
communal efforts. The village's location (at the meeting of
foothill/plains/river valley) was naturally rich enough in resources to
support a large (ca. 5000 souls) population without agriculture. There was
trade, but there is no indication that there was specialize, centralized
manufacture of the trade items. It was probably very influential, and it
lasted for perhaps over a thousand years; but it never was a city, and it
was never the center of a 'civilization', sensu strictu.

Tom McDonald



  #25  
Old October 10th 03, 05:06 AM
Paul R. Mays
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Default Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?



"Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message
...


Paul R. Mays wrote:




Yes...


During the ice age? Where and with what evidence do you believe it?

There were humans and human societies 13,000 ybp but did they constitute
a civilization in the sense of Egypt or Babylon?

Bob Kolker






First its actually a bit older than 13k more like
15 to 20 k

Try this.. Don't consider any point of view
but your own and look at 3 points and come up
with a better idea....

First: DNA Bottle neck.. Mitochondria DNA shows
a almost ELI event about 10 to 15 k ago that left
a small segment to repopulate of possible a few k
people world wide.

Second: Map the positions and mathematical symmetry
of the locations of Easter Island, Plains of Gaza, and
the plains of Nasser (sp) .. I will not tell you what I
think you will find.. you just look and make up your
mind..

Third: Map all the pyramids in Gaza... the bent, the stepped
the 3 main and the Red and the grey... add the location of
the Nile river and match that map to the Orion Constellation...
Then go to your trusty star map software and back it through
time till to only point that it matches the relationships and
you will find that it matches each star (all 7) and the location
of the Nile will match the band of the milkyway... 10k to 13k

Do it your self and see what you come up with....

As for why a past civilization being a bit hard to know of it
simple... The ice age... Cities that would have been close to water
ways during the early period of the ice age would be left high
and dry so many would move to the water for all the same reasons we
started most cities along the water..

Then the big melt... Those cities would now be miles out at sea under
400 to 800 feet of water and under 20k years of debris and marine growth..

and any old structures left behind would be reworked as a new
population grows and retakes the now dry lands...

The writer of Lost Civilization ( can't remember the guys name )
gives a lot of evidence that seems very convincing....

The pyramid match to the Orion group is very interesting...
Because if its really a map of that system then all the pyramids
had to be designed at the same time inorder to conform the map.
Which throws a monkey wrench into the classical model...

Also .. I think if it was closely studied that there is a relationship
between the design of each pyramids and the star it matches in Orion
Maybe the Red pyramids matches a Red Giant , Stepped pyramids
matches a multi planetary system ect.. Know if there is a
correlation but if there is its a biggy,,,,,,




  #26  
Old October 10th 03, 05:24 AM
Paul R. Mays
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Default Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?


"Tom Kirke" wrote in message
...

====================================

WAS THERE A CIVILIZATION
THAT EXISTED 13,000 YEARS AGO?


By definition civilization requires cities, so no, there
was no civilization 11kBCE. There were cultures, some
of them more advanced than others, but no civilizations.
If you disagree point to a city that existed then.

tom


http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/nation/2962443.htm

http://archives.mundoacuatico.com/oc...iousstones.pdf

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...kencities.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1923794.stm

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in522626.shtml

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/detail.asp?ID=32604&GRP=A

http://www.morien-institute.org/yonaguni.html

http://www.atlantisrising.com/issue1...apanunder.html


Thats a start but theres a much longer list....




--
We have discovered a therapy ( NOT a cure )
for the common cold. Play tuba for an hour.



  #28  
Old October 10th 03, 05:36 AM
Paul R. Mays
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Posts: n/a
Default Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?


"Thomas McDonald" wrote in message
...
"Double-A" wrote in message
om...
(Tom Kirke) wrote in message

...
====================================

WAS THERE A CIVILIZATION
THAT EXISTED 13,000 YEARS AGO?

By definition civilization requires cities, so no, there
was no civilization 11kBCE. There were cultures, some
of them more advanced than others, but no civilizations.
If you disagree point to a city that existed then.

tom



Cities of deer skin huts would leave few traces.

Double-A


AA,

A city of deerskin huts, if it were a city in the true sense, would
leave many, many traces for archaeologists. Even the huts would probably
leave at least post-hole patterns (unless you are thinking of teepees). A
city of deerskin huts would leave vast numbers of hearths, probably

storage
pits, refuse dumps, heavy indications of worked stone (flint, etc.), and
many disgarded or lost artifacts.

--
Tom McDonald
remove 'nohormel' to reply




Do you really think what is where people hang out today
was where they did say 25 k ago? If you want to find
evidence it will be out at sea and down 400 to 600 feet
under 60 to 80 feet of rock, coral, sand and crap of 20 k years..

We already know from DNA that around 20 k ago the population
of the planet was cut by over 90% (DNA Bottle neck)
http://crimp.lbl.gov/faywu99.pdf

In this world we know far less than we do know...

Paul R. Mays
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Some where within the Quantum State
Http://Paul.Mays.Com
http://paul.mays.com/resume.html

"Now, my suspicion is that the universe is
not only queerer than we suppose, but
queerer than we can suppose... I suspect
that there are more things in heaven and
earth than are dreamed of, in any philosophy"
- J.B.S. Haldane








  #30  
Old October 10th 03, 06:19 AM
Vanilla Gorilla (Monkey Boy)
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Default Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?

On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 20:13:12 -0600, "Carl R. Osterwald"
wrote in alt.fan.art-bell:

Cities of deer skin huts would leave few traces.

Double-A



You would be wrong there. If they existed there would
be evidence of the fires in those huts, the garbage thrown
away as well as many of the tools they used.


Mounds of evidence!


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