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#11
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Travel Among Stars Will Never Happen !
On 2020-06-22, Whisper wrote:
On 19/06/2020 11:33 pm, Porcospino wrote: On 2020-06-18, Whisper wrote: Exactly. Humans aren't equipped for extensive space travel, wouldn't survive long anyway. That's just sci-fi cartoon stuff. Humans aren't equipped for diving to the bottom of the ocean, flying in the stratosphere or walking on the Moon either. Alas, the time when we were limited to a specific environment and couldn't break out of it is long past. You're comparing that to intergalactic travel? Rofl. Interstellar, not intergalactic. The fact that you treat them as if they were interchangeable says a lot. Interstellar travel should be technically feasible for a civilization with a developed presence in its own system (low-cost launches due to economies of scale, industrial activities such as asteroid mining, settlements on more than one planet, solar power satellites, etc.. As in, there are technical designs for interstellar propulsion that we know to be realistic for a civilization with that kind of energy and resource availability. I don't think the fact that we haven't gone beyond the Moon in fifty years is significant, because technological development (and economic growth) of this kind won't happen within decades. |
#12
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Travel Among Stars Will Never Happen !
On 22/06/2020 9:47 pm, Porcospino wrote:
On 2020-06-22, Whisper wrote: On 19/06/2020 11:33 pm, Porcospino wrote: On 2020-06-18, Whisper wrote: Exactly. Humans aren't equipped for extensive space travel, wouldn't survive long anyway. That's just sci-fi cartoon stuff. Humans aren't equipped for diving to the bottom of the ocean, flying in the stratosphere or walking on the Moon either. Alas, the time when we were limited to a specific environment and couldn't break out of it is long past. You're comparing that to intergalactic travel? Rofl. Interstellar, not intergalactic. The fact that you treat them as if they were interchangeable says a lot. Both impossible. Voyager would take 73,000 yrs to get to nearest star. Jesus was alive only 2,000 yrs ago for some perspective. You'd need 1,000 generations to make 1 way trip if average life span is 73 yrs. That's impossible. Interstellar travel should be technically feasible for a civilization with a developed presence in its own system (low-cost launches due to economies of scale, industrial activities such as asteroid mining, settlements on more than one planet, solar power satellites, etc.. As in, there are technical designs for interstellar propulsion that we know to be realistic for a civilization with that kind of energy and resource availability. You're a complete nutter lol. Just typing words into a keyboard doesn't make it feasible. Why should interstellar travel be 'technically feasible' for a civilization? It's actually 100% impossible. You've been watching too much Star Trek. I don't think the fact that we haven't gone beyond the Moon in fifty years is significant, because technological development (and economic growth) of this kind won't happen within decades. It will never happen. 100% money back guarantee. Sorry to burst you bubble but you need to grow up sometime. |
#13
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Travel Among Stars Will Never Happen !
=20 =20=20I=20don't=20think=20the=20fact=20that=20we =20haven't=20gon= e=20beyond=20the=20Moon=20in=20fifty =20=20years=20is=20significant,=20because=20tech nological=20deve= lopment=20(and=20economic =20=20growth)=20of=20this=20kind=20won't=20happe n=20within=20dec= ades. =20 =20It=20will=20never=20happen.=20=20100%=20money= 20back=20guarant= ee.=20=20Sorry=20to=20burst=20you =20bubble=20but=20you=20need=20to=20grow=20up=20s ometime. It=20obviously=20most=20certainly=20will=20happen= 20eventually. |
#14
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Travel Among Stars Will Never Happen !
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#15
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Travel Among Stars Will Never Happen !
Porcospino writes:
On 2020-06-22, Whisper wrote: On 19/06/2020 11:33 pm, Porcospino wrote: On 2020-06-18, Whisper wrote: Exactly. Humans aren't equipped for extensive space travel, wouldn't survive long anyway. That's just sci-fi cartoon stuff. Humans aren't equipped for diving to the bottom of the ocean, flying in the stratosphere or walking on the Moon either. Alas, the time when we were limited to a specific environment and couldn't break out of it is long past. You're comparing that to intergalactic travel? Rofl. Interstellar, not intergalactic. The fact that you treat them as if they were interchangeable says a lot. Interstellar travel should be technically feasible for a civilization with a developed presence in its own system (low-cost launches due to economies of scale, industrial activities such as asteroid mining, settlements on more than one planet, solar power satellites, etc.. As in, there are technical designs for interstellar propulsion that we know to be realistic for a civilization with that kind of energy and resource availability. I don't think the fact that we haven't gone beyond the Moon in fifty years is significant, because technological development (and economic growth) of this kind won't happen within decades. We have SpaceX. -- Daniel Visit me at: gopher://gcpp.world |
#16
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Travel Among Stars Will Never Happen !
On 2020-06-22, Whisper wrote:
Interstellar, not intergalactic. The fact that you treat them as if they were interchangeable says a lot. Both impossible. Voyager would take 73,000 yrs to get to nearest star. Jesus was alive only 2,000 yrs ago for some perspective. You'd need 1,000 generations to make 1 way trip if average life span is 73 yrs. That's impossible. Voyager is a terrible example because you're assuming that that peak of possible propulsion technology was reached in the 1970s (which is a ridiculous assumption). There have been papers detailing the engineering requirements for decades-long trips to the nearest stars for a while now, for example using laser-pushed light sails. They are unfeasible from the point of view of present human society's energy availability (but that should keep growing unless we go extinct very soon or we abandon all our spacefaring ambitions) but there should be no engineering showstopper, much less a physics breakthrough required. http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/studi...rt/4Landis.pdf This study details a fly-by of Alpha Centauri lasting 44 years, but there are plenty similar ones with shorter travel times depending on the assumed sail diameter and energy output of the lasers. And this is just one propulsion system among others that have been studied. Will this happen today or within this century, then? Should we try to build this now? No, but only because a developed space presence is required, and that will take decades or centuries to build up. The main obstacle probably isn't even travel time itself. I don't think the fact that we haven't gone beyond the Moon in fifty years is significant, because technological development (and economic growth) of this kind won't happen within decades. It will never happen. 100% money back guarantee. Sorry to burst you bubble but you need to grow up sometime. "Never" is an awfully long time to bet something on. |
#17
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Travel Among Stars Will Never Happen !
Il 22/06/2020 18:59, Daniel ha scritto:
We have SpaceX. Really a terrific progress going from Saturn V to SpaceX in fifty years. At this pace an unlucky crew will be on Mars by the year 9000 without any possibility to come back to Earth... Luigi Caselli |
#18
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Travel Among Stars Will Never Happen !
Il 22/06/2020 22:22, Porcospino ha scritto:
On 2020-06-22, Whisper wrote: Voyager is a terrible example because you're assuming that that peak of possible propulsion technology was reached in the 1970s (which is a ridiculous assumption). There have been papers detailing the engineering requirements for decades-long trips to the nearest stars for a while now, for example using laser-pushed light sails. They are unfeasible from the point of view of present human society's energy availability (but that should keep growing unless we go extinct very soon or we abandon all our spacefaring ambitions) but there should be no engineering showstopper, much less a physics breakthrough required. http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/studi...rt/4Landis.pdf This study details a fly-by of Alpha Centauri lasting 44 years, but there are plenty similar ones with shorter travel times depending on the assumed sail diameter and energy output of the lasers. And this is just one propulsion system among others that have been studied. Something newer? The document was written in 1999 and after 20 years we haven't had no progress at all about propulsion systems. We use the same rockets, only smaller, of mission Apollo. Maybe I have to wait 10000 years to take my laser-pushed light sail and go on some exoplanet on vacation... Luigi Caselli |
#19
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Travel Among Stars Will Never Happen !
On 2020-06-23, Luigi Caselli wrote:
Something newer? The document was written in 1999 and after 20 years we haven't had no progress at all about propulsion systems. There are newer documents on the same concept. Some improvements have been made when it comes to materials (since the sail would need to be very light, have good reflective properties, and be incredibly thin). You can search some of them he https://ntrs.nasa.gov/ For example, this one from this year discusses options for interstellar propulsion in general and mentions workshops on the topic: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/c...0200000759.pdf This one is a more technical paper tackling part of the topic: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/c...0100036571.pdf There is 'Breakthrough Starshot' which is a very limited (proof-of-concept) private initiative for nanoprobes capable of reaching Alpha Centauri using laser sails. I doubt they will go too far, but they got some funding and media exposure (googling it brings up plenty of results). They are all _conceptual studies_, of course, because at present the energy requirements are too burdensome for us (ie, even aside from engineering challenges concerning nanomaterials or scaling up lasers, building one or more space lasers with the required power, ability to focus the beam at large distances, etc., would be impossibly expensive). But for a civilization with a developed presence in its own system, these requirements would be trivial. I never implied that one of us would go on vacation to exoplanets any time soon anyway: it was only meant to show that conceptually interstellar travel should be feasible (within centuries, perhaps) and isn't 'unscientific'. No violation of physics is required, and the engineering issues are solvable given enough time. Travel between the stars *can* happen, even if not for us right now. We use the same rockets, only smaller, of mission Apollo. I wouldn't be so pessimistic. The main reason why human spaceflight programs have stagnated after Apollo has been that they were approached in ways that were economically unsustainable (especially if you look at some 1980s projects for Mars landings), along with some efficiency issues within the aerospace industry that have kept launch costs high. With high launch costs and expensive projects you're hardly going to get anything beyond Earth orbit outside of one-off missions ("flags and footprints"). Since it was mentioned, I think that SpaceX has made good progress towards a sustainable space presence: both the Raptor engine and the ability to return boosters to launch site are a step ahead compared to what had been accomplished until now (and is influencing other companies' choices too), and hopefully other stuff like in-orbit refueling and the whole 'Starship' project will pave the way for more. |
#20
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Travel Among Stars Will Never Happen !
On 6/22/2020 1:22 PM, Porcospino wrote:
On 2020-06-22, Whisper wrote: Interstellar, not intergalactic. The fact that you treat them as if they were interchangeable says a lot. Both impossible. Voyager would take 73,000 yrs to get to nearest star. Jesus was alive only 2,000 yrs ago for some perspective. You'd need 1,000 generations to make 1 way trip if average life span is 73 yrs. That's impossible. Voyager is a terrible example because you're assuming that that peak of possible propulsion technology was reached in the 1970s (which is a ridiculous assumption). There have been papers detailing the engineering requirements for decades-long trips to the nearest stars for a while now, for example using laser-pushed light sails. They are unfeasible from the point of view of present human society's energy availability (but that should keep growing unless we go extinct very soon or we abandon all our spacefaring ambitions) but there should be no engineering showstopper, much less a physics breakthrough required. http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/studi...rt/4Landis.pdf This study details a fly-by of Alpha Centauri lasting 44 years, but there are plenty similar ones with shorter travel times depending on the assumed sail diameter and energy output of the lasers. And this is just one propulsion system among others that have been studied. Will this happen today or within this century, then? Should we try to build this now? No, but only because a developed space presence is required, and that will take decades or centuries to build up. Yes. "decades or centuries" where the civilized world continues economic growth and scientific expansion. That is not guaranteed, but is quite likely. The main obstacle probably isn't even travel time itself. I don't think the fact that we haven't gone beyond the Moon in fifty years is significant, because technological development (and economic growth) of this kind won't happen within decades. It will never happen. 100% money back guarantee. Sorry to burst you bubble but you need to grow up sometime. "Never" is an awfully long time to bet something on. I agree with that. |
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