How Did the Jarosite Form at Meridiani?

I agree. It seems pretty clear that since life once existed, it still
probably does. Consider extreme halophile bacteria that live in alkali
desert areas. It makes perfect sense that we can expect that at the very
least, there are still bacterial life forms that live below the soil where
there is most likely a good supply of very concentrated brine.
It would also make sense to look deep underground for bacteria that
metabolize petroleum using magnetite as the electron donor for its
digestion.

Cheers!

Chip Shults

Sir Charles W. Shults III wrote:

It would also make sense to look deep underground for bacteria that
metabolize petroleum using magnetite as the electron donor for its
digestion.


That's ludicrous. Do you know how petroleum forms?!

Petroleum forms when organic matter (and a lot of it) is subjected to
heat, and pressure, for an extended period of time. Right now, there is
no evidence of life having EVER existed on Mars (NOTE - This -may-
change. But at this point, there is only some evidence of water).
Therefore, it would -NOT- make ANY sense to go drilling into mars,
hoping to find oil. (They call it fossil fuel for a reason...)


Cheers!

Chip Shults

jonathan wrote:

MORPHOLOGY OF JAROSITE-GROUP COMPOUNDS
PRECIPITATED FROM BIOLOGICALLY AND CHEMICALLY
OXIDIZED Fe IONS
http://pubs.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/mineral/m...38/04538-1.pdf


From the above paper it appears to me that jarosite
forms normally when the alkali sulfate is at its
boiling point. And chemical formation requires
oxidation. Neither of these conditions are abundant
in the current conditions at Meridiani.

No. Read the first paragraph of the Introduction (It describes how
Jarosite is normally found). What you are referring to is the method
used for -1- of thier samples (Method I under Formation of
Jarosite-group compounds). They did not even synthesize this material
themselves...someone else did, and sent it to them! Also, the material
generated by this first method was done in a LABRATORY...An artificial
environment, which you cannot say is the way it forms "normally".

But biological formation needs only forrooxidan
bacteria, which the conditions at Meridiani would
easily support.

No - The surface temperature of Mars varies from -20 degrees celsius to
almost -100 degrees celsius (these measurements were obtained by the
Viking landers)...I would most certainly say that NO surface area of
mars is capable of sustaining a bacteria such as this for any length of
time. PERHAPS deep underground, but thats something else entirely.

Thiobacillus ferrooxidans
Thiobacillus ferrooxidans is only one of a number of acidophilic
bacteria that contribute to the leaching of sulfides, and suggests
that control of the biological component of sulfide mineral leaching
will require greater understanding of the microbial ecology of acid
leaching environments. Thiobacillus are commonly found in the
environment, especially where sulfur compounds are abundant, such
as mining areas, sewer treatment and marine habitats. The acidophilic
group is of great importance in the bioleaching of metals by the
oxidation of insoluble metal sulfides. They have an important role
for the desulfurization of coal and the decontamination of industrial
wastes




So Meridiani would need to have been a hot springs for jarosite
to form from non-biological processes it would seem.
Looking at the pictures the soil properties make that
idea a bit of a stretch I believe. Meridiani just doesn't
look like Yellowstone to me.

You failed to read the Introduction of paper you cited (I agree with
citing sources (good job!)...I don't agree with not reading them
completely!!!!! (shame on you!)).

You have also misread the parts of the paper you did glance at. I
discussed this in the first paragraph I wrote (Which i hope you read in
its entirety). You have misinterpreted Method I of your first source
(which is used as a baseline) to be the only way that jarosite can form.
This is not the case. It is simply the way it was made in THIS
INSTANCE, IN A LABRATORY SETTING, and this is not the only way to form
these substances.

Also, you did not look at the temperature range of T. ferrooxidans ...
It survives in a temperature range of 0-51 degrees celsius (and thrives
at the warmer end of that range) ... The surface of mars, as measured by
the Viking landers, has a range from ~-20 to ~-90 celsius...In some
areas, it reaches 50 degrees celsius, but it does not stay this warm.
Temperatures this low would certainly kill these organisms off.


Opinions?

Ok, but you're not going to like it.

Your statements are based on the SPECULATION that there is life on mars,
and that it is EXACTLY like life on earth. This has been speculated to
no end, argued to no end, so I'm not going to cover this beyond saying
"Speculation is not fact."

Your "supporting evidence" is, quite frankly, laughable. You've failed
to read completely the sources you've quoted, and you quite obviously
don't understand most of the parts that you have read. Those VERY few
sentences you could make sense of, you've taken COMPLETELY out of
context and then presented them as facts.

It's obvious you believe you know something about science or science
related activities. This belief contradicts reality, however. If you
have an interest in science, then by all means, take some college
courses in the field of science of your choice...But don't waste our
time, or bandwidth, by presenting garbage like this. There are brighter,
MUCH more knowledgeable minds at work on this than yours. Your lazy,
half-ass approach to theory is, at best, rediculous, and at worst, a
detriment to science (I sure as hell hope you don't spout this garbage
off to people who don't know any more than you do, in hopes of
impressing them).

Thats my opinion. You asked for it, you got it.

Jonathan

"jonathan" wrote in message
...


MORPHOLOGY OF JAROSITE-GROUP COMPOUNDS
PRECIPITATED FROM BIOLOGICALLY AND CHEMICALLY
OXIDIZED Fe IONS
http://pubs.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/mineral/m...38/04538-1.pdf


From the above paper it appears to me that jarosite
forms normally when the alkali sulfate is at its
boiling point. And chemical formation requires
oxidation. Neither of these conditions are abundant
in the current conditions at Meridiani.

SNIP
Jonathan

Hi Jonathan,

What makes you think that oxidation can't occur. In fact the martian soil
seems to be highly oxidising. When the soil was wetted in the Viking
experiments oxygen was released in abundance. It was suggested that either
peroxides or superoxides are common. Recently the Joint Astronomy Centre's
James Clerk Maxwell Telescope in Hawaii found direct evidence of H2O2 in the
martian atmosphere. The colour of the red planet in itself is something of a
give away as to the oxidation state of the regolith (ie Fe+++). The other
thing is, conditions in lab experiments here on earth should parallel those
on Mars.

Nick

"Sir Charles W. Shults III" wrote in message
news
I agree. It seems pretty clear that since life once existed, it still
probably does.

Except that it is not entirely clear that life once existed on Mars.
That remains speculation.
If you disagree, please supply confirmation that life once existed
on Mars.

"jonathan" wrote in message
...


MORPHOLOGY OF JAROSITE-GROUP COMPOUNDS
PRECIPITATED FROM BIOLOGICALLY AND CHEMICALLY
OXIDIZED Fe IONS
http://pubs.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/mineral/m...38/04538-1.pdf


From the above paper it appears to me that jarosite
forms normally when the alkali sulfate is at its
boiling point. And chemical formation requires
oxidation. Neither of these conditions are abundant
in the current conditions at Meridiani.

But biological formation needs only forrooxidan
bacteria, which the conditions at Meridiani would
easily support.


Thiobacillus ferrooxidans
Thiobacillus ferrooxidans is only one of a number of acidophilic
bacteria that contribute to the leaching of sulfides, and suggests
that control of the biological component of sulfide mineral leaching
will require greater understanding of the microbial ecology of acid
leaching environments. Thiobacillus are commonly found in the
environment, especially where sulfur compounds are abundant, such
as mining areas, sewer treatment and marine habitats. The acidophilic
group is of great importance in the bioleaching of metals by the
oxidation of insoluble metal sulfides. They have an important role
for the desulfurization of coal and the decontamination of industrial
wastes
http://thiobacillus.allbio.org/



So Meridiani would need to have been a hot springs for jarosite
to form from non-biological processes it would seem.
Looking at the pictures the soil properties make that
idea a bit of a stretch I believe. Meridiani just doesn't
look like Yellowstone to me.


Opinions?

Was all this before or after your fresh water sponges
with their floating iron gemmules thriving in a
salt brine?

Alex Wisnieski wrote in message ...
Sir Charles W. Shults III wrote:

It would also make sense to look deep underground for bacteria that
metabolize petroleum using magnetite as the electron donor for its
digestion.


That's ludicrous. Do you know how petroleum forms?!

Petroleum forms when organic matter (and a lot of it) is subjected to
heat, and pressure, for an extended period of time. Right now, there is
no evidence of life having EVER existed on Mars (NOTE - This -may-
change. But at this point, there is only some evidence of water).
Therefore, it would -NOT- make ANY sense to go drilling into mars,
hoping to find oil. (They call it fossil fuel for a reason...)


Cheers!

Chip Shults

Well, that thing ain't so simple. The current mainstream theory still
around is that Petroleum is a fossil fuel, mainly created during the
Carbonic Era. BUT! There is a lot of people and data that point to the
fact the some oil reservoirs are not in the right place and right
conditions for such a simple explanation. Some detractors consider
that oil may have migrated under the plasts. Again BUT! That does not
explain the discoveries made by the Mirs... No, no, there are three
Mirs, one in space, two on the bottom of the sea, ooops now all of
them are on the bottom of the sea... Don't remember? Those of Titanic
fame... Yes, yes, yes DiCaprio and Celline Dion going BRRRUPP!!! Now
well, lets' return to our fish... Well, the Mirs _before_ all that
romantic and heartbreaking sink were two of the most famous scientific
deep sea submarines. On the Red Sea, at the rift over there, they made
a long analysis of the so-called hot-spots or black chimneys... These
structures are slightly the equivalent of our geysers on Earth. The
difference is that they are more permanent and make a lot of mess
around. Soooo, the Mirs found on those hot-spots oil. Well deep under
sea! That shook a little bit certain conceptions about oil formation.
Yes, oil is being created there and seems a lot of it. They brought up
some samples of rocks that were saturated with oil.

Anyway this is not a proof or evidence that can be easily related to
Mars. Mars has a problem with this. Plate Tectonics there were either
too weak or nearly non-existent. People do think that oil is still
made from biology but, it is not so fossil as it seems and may be
currently produced near certain active tectonic zones that lately calm
down, allow oil to rest and be extracted quite easily.

Again I would warn not to pick too much these theories. They have at
least 20 years of living, have many caveats (mainly the one about rift
production) and still we really cannot be sure about many things
occurring at the hot spots. But I think that bringing them to Mars is
running a little bit over the rope over there. If there was oil in
Mars, then, there would be by-products floating around, specially the
gaseous fraction of Methane. Besides we should have hit already some
tarpit or similar. There could exist "Holy Rocks" like those found in
Azerbaidjan, where oil pours naturally into open surface. Well
anything... But there is no such information there. Yes, we could
think that oil is well, well deep inside Mars... Large reseorvoirs...
After all a big bump on the side, that basalt, mega-volcans and signs
of massive shake-ups? I wonder...

Alex Wisnieski wrote in message ...
jonathan wrote:

No - The surface temperature of Mars varies from -20 degrees celsius to
almost -100 degrees celsius (these measurements were obtained by the
Viking landers)...I would most certainly say that NO surface area of
mars is capable of sustaining a bacteria such as this for any length of
time. PERHAPS deep underground, but thats something else entirely.
A. You are dealing with old information. Take at least Pathfinder's
information for a check up. Temperature may go over our 0... Truly, in
very short moments.

B. You are dealing with high latitudes and regions that are similar to
many of our deserts. And they were chosen for that to avoid putting
Viking's in danger of breaking into some hill. No one knows what may
happen in a more weather protected region.

C. Go read some data on Antarctica, btw the most near-martian
environment we have, and you'll find that some microorganisms do
survive at -80. Yes, truly they are in a deep-hibernation. But look at
A. and B. and you see they have a chance to mess a little bit for a
second. Besides, some organisms survive a little deep inside fissures.
Less than two millimeters deep, in a environment that usually is known
as deep freezing drought.

D. You don't need a permanent living community in Mars to think about
life. In some of our deadliest deserts, many living origanisms are
adapted to live in a moment. That moment may be as long as a few
years.

E. You are talking about the present conditions in Mars. But it is
clear they were different in the past.

Also, you did not look at the temperature range of T. ferrooxidans ...
It survives in a temperature range of 0-51 degrees celsius (and thrives
at the warmer end of that range) ... The surface of mars, as measured by
the Viking landers, has a range from ~-20 to ~-90 celsius...In some
areas, it reaches 50 degrees celsius, but it does not stay this warm.
Temperatures this low would certainly kill these organisms off.
Again I would recomend you to recheck the temperature ranges. Besides
remember that there is still a question wether water can possess a
temporary liquid state, under such temperatures, in a environment just
about the edge of the soil (something that rose under some of Viking
observations). As atmosphere is much lower and we don't know fully the
physico-chemical conditions some microns deep, this is still a
question.



Opinions?

Ok, but you're not going to like it.

Your statements are based on the SPECULATION that there is life on mars,
and that it is EXACTLY like life on earth. This has been speculated to
no end, argued to no end, so I'm not going to cover this beyond saying
"Speculation is not fact."
You are also making some speculations... Adn we are all making
speculations. You are starting from a point which you suppose that
Viking's landing places were a standard for Mars. As we know now they
are far from being a wholescale standard. Besides do not forget that
Vikings measured the temperature now but we have very little data
about Mars paleoclimate. Which, under MERs expeditions seems to have
been a lot milder in the past.


Your "supporting evidence" is, quite frankly, laughable. You've failed
to read completely the sources you've quoted, and you quite obviously
don't understand most of the parts that you have read. Those VERY few
sentences you could make sense of, you've taken COMPLETELY out of
context and then presented them as facts.
Well I ain't gonna start judging left and right the original poster,
but I think you are running too fast into conclusions also.


It's obvious you believe you know something about science or science
related activities. This belief contradicts reality, however. If you
I would say it contradicts your beliefs also. And yours and his
beliefs may not go with my beliefs. The reality is out there, in that
red spot over the sky. That's the reality pal. And we are still a long
way to know it.

have an interest in science, then by all means, take some college
courses in the field of science of your choice...But don't waste our
time, or bandwidth, by presenting garbage like this. There are brighter,
MUCH more knowledgeable minds at work on this than yours. Your lazy,
half-ass approach to theory is, at best, rediculous, and at worst, a
detriment to science (I sure as hell hope you don't spout this garbage
off to people who don't know any more than you do, in hopes of
impressing them).
Too much flame and fast conclusions. Not much better than the original
poster...


Thats my opinion. You asked for it, you got it.

Jonathan

Pedro Rosa wrote:
Alex Wisnieski wrote in message ...

Sir Charles W. Shults III wrote:


It would also make sense to look deep underground for bacteria that
metabolize petroleum using magnetite as the electron donor for its
digestion.


That's ludicrous. Do you know how petroleum forms?!

Petroleum forms when organic matter (and a lot of it) is subjected to
heat, and pressure, for an extended period of time. Right now, there is
no evidence of life having EVER existed on Mars (NOTE - This -may-
change. But at this point, there is only some evidence of water).
Therefore, it would -NOT- make ANY sense to go drilling into mars,
hoping to find oil. (They call it fossil fuel for a reason...)



Cheers!

Chip Shults


Well, that thing ain't so simple. The current mainstream theory still
around is that Petroleum is a fossil fuel, mainly created during the
Carbonic Era.

?? What is Carbonic Era?? Carboniferous Period? In the US, much of the
oil and gas is from the Cretaceous Period.

"Chosp" wrote in message news:q1D7c.1$Ui.0@fed1read06...
"Sir Charles W. Shults III" wrote in message
news
I agree. It seems pretty clear that since life once existed, it still
probably does.

Except that it is not entirely clear that life once existed on Mars.
That remains speculation.
If you disagree, please supply confirmation that life once existed
on Mars.
Well, Chosp, reading some of your posts, it seems that you are looking
for some new flame war popping from the corner... Did you see the
bunny? It was gone... So where did it go? It hide... Quite strange
correct? It seems alive... So where could he hide?.. That thing under
the landing gear does not look much as the bunny... Maybe it's another
NASA cover-up. Well, it's anyway a cover-up. It's covered up by NASA's
landing gear, so NASA is making it all up... Oh, eeeeh I'm getting
off-topic? Where's the bunny? Well I can show you but you ain't gonna
like it... Yes because it's the real proof that Martian bunnies are
not only alive, run better than Duracell bunnies, but also
intelligent, have a Mission on Earth, love to play hide-and-seek and
NASA is playing Bunny Doom (weapon on button 1)...

Wanna see the bunny?.. Well look at the bottom of this page:

http://cydonia.ksu.ru/jovian/index.html

Now, when you have The Proof can we go into a more pragmatic talk???