Technical and Spiritual Development

A few years back I read in one of Carl Sagan's books a comment about
the the shift in feeling towards slavery. In 1800 nearly all civilized
people thought nothing of owning slaves. By 1900 nearly all civilized
people were apalled at the thought of slavery. What happened? The
civil war? No, the civil war was the RESULT of a shift of
conciousness, not the effect. This gave Carl the great hope that
someday humanity will have a similar shift of conciousness with regard
to warfare. Sagan expressed the fervent hope that one day our present
regard killing and dying for one's nation would be equally appalling as
slavery is today for the vast majority of humanity. This is the only
way, Sagan thought, humanity could survive the development of ever
increasingly powerful weapons systems.

A few months after Sagan died I read an article in JAMA about the
impact of anesthetics on society. In 1800 modern anesthetics were
unavailable. by 1900 they were commonplace. In 1800 suffering, from
toothaches, childbirth, broken bones, disease, you name it, was a
universal part of human experience. In 1900 suffering from physical
pain was a rarity - pain was treatable. The impact this had on society
was dramatic. Namely, when physical suffering was no longer a
universal, the children born into a society free of pain were affected
differently by the suffering of others. Anti-slavery, and
anti-vivisectionist, and anti-cruelty societies arose for the first
time and gained greater and greater import - resulting ultimately in
the Civil War and the end of the practice of slavery.

This was the answer Sagan was looking for with regards to slavery.

Could there be a similar development that would lead to a sea change in
the way we view killing and dying?

Well, what if the medical arts advanced sufficiently so that people
wouldn't age or die?

http://longevity-science.org/Hi-International-2004.pdf

We're not talking about keeping ancient people alive under bed rest
here. What we're talking about is stopping or reversing the chemisty
of the aging process.

This I think would create a change in the way people think deeply about
death. Death will no longer be a requirement of life. It may happen
with increasing rarity due to accident or disease. But the inevitable
decline of function with age will no longer be a part of human
existence.

This, if it were to occur, would have a dramatic impact on our feelings
about death and dying. Children born into such a culture would mature
and come to view death and dying quite differently than we do today.
As a result, no civilized person would support killing or dying for any
reason, or permit one to threaten death of another for any reason.

This is a vast sea change waiting to happen.
Everyone with the sensitivity of a Christ or a Buddah.

William Mook wrote:

Well, what if the medical arts advanced sufficiently so that people
wouldn't age or die?

http://longevity-science.org/Hi-International-2004.pdf

We're not talking about keeping ancient people alive under bed rest
here. What we're talking about is stopping or reversing the chemisty
of the aging process.



You do realize what this implies in regards to total world population
numbers, don't you?
This may not be a good idea; one thing that a newer, younger, generation
does is challenge the hidebound outlook of their elders and make the
world evolve- a world that is crowded with 200 year old people is going
to be pretty stagnant. There is also the economic aspect of this- too
much wealth could be concentrated in the hands of the very old, without
death and inheritance allowing it to move into new hands who will find
new uses for it.

Pat

William Mook wrote:

Well, what if the medical arts advanced sufficiently so that people
wouldn't age or die?


Civilization would likely collapse.

This, if it were to occur, would have a dramatic impact on our feelings
about death and dying.

Indeed. As with "universal health care," people would come to believe
that they have a "right" to live forever, and yet would liekly still
want to retire at 65 and live on Social Security. The population would
explode, services woudl collapse, and wars, both conventional and
entirely new types would break out and death would be everywhere.


Children born into such a culture would mature
and come to view death and dying quite differently than we do today.
As a result, no civilized person would support killing or dying for any
reason, or permit one to threaten death of another for any reason.


Hogwash. Death would be seen as still beign the ultimate punishment,
even in a society that somehow figured out how to survive having a bunch
of immortals.


This is a vast sea change waiting to happen.
Everyone with the sensitivity of a Christ or a Buddah.


Please. It'd be a society of Pierson's Puppeteers at best... people
hiding in armored fortresses to keep what they have.

Pat Flannery wrote:



William Mook wrote:

Well, what if the medical arts advanced sufficiently so that people
wouldn't age or die?

http://longevity-science.org/Hi-International-2004.pdf

We're not talking about keeping ancient people alive under bed rest
here. What we're talking about is stopping or reversing the chemisty
of the aging process.



You do realize what this implies in regards to total world population
numbers, don't you?
This may not be a good idea; one thing that a newer, younger,
generation does is challenge the hidebound outlook of their elders and
make the world evolve- a world that is crowded with 200 year old
people is going to be pretty stagnant. There is also the economic
aspect of this- too much wealth could be concentrated in the hands of
the very old, without death and inheritance allowing it to move into
new hands who will find new uses for it.


There's also the question of who gets it. As with any new medical
tratment, the rich will be able to afford it first. Thus society will be
stratified... the immortal rich, the mortal poor. The mortal poor will
vastly outnumber the immortal rich. There will be war, there will be death.

For the time being, an immortality serum should be one of the most
illegal things known to man... anyone takign it should be shot on sight.

If life were extended substantially the laws would change dramatically.
Having children would be banned and only birthed under strict governmental
control to keep the population from exploding.
Religion would become large groups of celibate radicals. Supression of all
things that show sex, love or thoughts of reproduction. There would probably
also be moves to castrate at birth and sewing up of the vagina. People could
not sleep together ever again.

"William Mook" wrote in message
oups.com...
A few years back I read in one of Carl Sagan's books a comment about
the the shift in feeling towards slavery. In 1800 nearly all civilized
people thought nothing of owning slaves. By 1900 nearly all civilized
people were apalled at the thought of slavery. What happened? The
civil war? No, the civil war was the RESULT of a shift of
conciousness, not the effect. This gave Carl the great hope that
someday humanity will have a similar shift of conciousness with regard
to warfare. Sagan expressed the fervent hope that one day our present
regard killing and dying for one's nation would be equally appalling as
slavery is today for the vast majority of humanity. This is the only
way, Sagan thought, humanity could survive the development of ever
increasingly powerful weapons systems.

A few months after Sagan died I read an article in JAMA about the
impact of anesthetics on society. In 1800 modern anesthetics were
unavailable. by 1900 they were commonplace. In 1800 suffering, from
toothaches, childbirth, broken bones, disease, you name it, was a
universal part of human experience. In 1900 suffering from physical
pain was a rarity - pain was treatable. The impact this had on society
was dramatic. Namely, when physical suffering was no longer a
universal, the children born into a society free of pain were affected
differently by the suffering of others. Anti-slavery, and
anti-vivisectionist, and anti-cruelty societies arose for the first
time and gained greater and greater import - resulting ultimately in
the Civil War and the end of the practice of slavery.

This was the answer Sagan was looking for with regards to slavery.

Could there be a similar development that would lead to a sea change in
the way we view killing and dying?

Well, what if the medical arts advanced sufficiently so that people
wouldn't age or die?

http://longevity-science.org/Hi-International-2004.pdf

We're not talking about keeping ancient people alive under bed rest
here. What we're talking about is stopping or reversing the chemisty
of the aging process.

This I think would create a change in the way people think deeply about
death. Death will no longer be a requirement of life. It may happen
with increasing rarity due to accident or disease. But the inevitable
decline of function with age will no longer be a part of human
existence.

This, if it were to occur, would have a dramatic impact on our feelings
about death and dying. Children born into such a culture would mature
and come to view death and dying quite differently than we do today.
As a result, no civilized person would support killing or dying for any
reason, or permit one to threaten death of another for any reason.

This is a vast sea change waiting to happen.
Everyone with the sensitivity of a Christ or a Buddah.

Yes I realize. Do you?

Consider,

Wealthy industrial nations as they increase living standards have found
that population growth rates have fallen below replacement levels.
This trend seems to be a general trend. As women become empowered and
raising children is an option rather than a requirement, growth rates
decline. Death will still occur by accident and disease.

And consider the nature of infinite series that add up to a finite sum!


Assume the worst caase, that there are 8 billion people who never die
living on Earth and all are paired into 4 billion reproductive couples.
All couples have one offspring - also who never dies. Now those 4
billion children grow up and form 2 billion reproductive couples. This
next generation has 2 billion children who never die. These children
grow up and form 1 billion reproductive couples. These couples have 1
billion children. and so forth. You end up with the following
sequence;

Reproductive
Group Year Total Population
8,000,000,000 2025 8,000,000,000
4,000,000,000 2050 12,000,000,000
2,000,000,000 2075 14,000,000,000
1,000,000,000 2100 15,000,000,000
500,000,000 2125 15,500,000,000
250,000,000 2150 15,750,000,000
125,000,000 2175 15,825,000,000
62,500,000 2200 15,937,500,000
31,250,000 2225 15,986,750,000

and so on...

In this scenario even though every person has an offspring, and every
offspring has an offspring, if everyone voluntarily limits the number
of offspring they have to 1 - the population never grows beyond twice
the starting population. As a practical matter we won't reach
perfection or have everyone doing exactly the same thing. What this
means is some people will have lots of kids, some people won't have
any, some will take longevity treatments, some won't, and so forth.

We can have practical longevity treatments and not cause a massive
population explosion. In fact, as we automate our economy with
robotics in the 21st century and free ourselves of the limitations of
fossil fuels we will see a dramatic increase in living standards and
with it a precipitous decline in population growth rates. This is
quite different than the situation we faced in the 20th century. In
this case the fruits of longevity research will be welcomed as a
panacea.

Now, what makes you think that the newer younger generation won't
challenge the older generation? If there are fewer children around in
each succeeding generation what makes you think they won't be valued
and respected in their own right?

There has never been a world of vital 200 year olds, what makes you
think they'll be slowed down versions of feeble ancients we are
familiar with today?

Disrespect for the young and elderly, feebleness and lack of vitality
associated with extreme age - these are features of the primitive
cultures predating the sea change I'm talking about. What you view as
problems are merely projections of your limited imagination.

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 04:37:44 -0800, William Mook wrote:

A few years back I read in one of Carl Sagan's books...

You wouldn't happen to remember the name of Sagan's book?

Good post thanks,

Craig Fink

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 07:24:16 -0800, William Mook wrote:

Yes I realize.

Another good post,

But to get true change, in several of your examples, it really takes
another generation to make the change. The old generation dies off, then
the new generation brings the better idea froward. If the older generation
doesn't die off at some point, won't human beings then stagnate as as
species? Or, will we have achieved utopia, and change will no longer be
necessary?

Craig Fink

Telomerase and the drugs associated with making it into a youth serum
are unlikely to be expensive. It appears it will be rather easy and
cheap to make and use. So, unless the material is artificially
restricted, there is no reason it cannot be widely used.

Your propensity to find reasons to restrict those things people enjoy
most is an interesting character trait Scott. Your rationalizations
don't hold an ounce of water - but your responses are consistent.

From my limited understanding aging on the cellular level is associated
with celluar senescence. That is, after dividing about 50 times cells
stop dividing. In adults this takes about 75 years. After that,
depending on health prior to that time and living conditions, the body
declines and the person dies some 5 to 30 years after.

One idea to stave off sensence is to reduce calorie intake. This slows
the cellular division process extending life another 25 to 50 years -
at cost to mobility, energy, etc.

Another idea is to slow the cell division process by adding some sort
of drug to the body that achieves this. The side effects of those
things that have been tried are worse than restricted calorie intake.

Finally, there are those that are working on extending the division
process indefinitely. Cancer cells for example are eternal - they just
don't know when to stop dividing.

One idea is that this is associated with senescence and cancer is that
there is a shortening of telomeres.

A teleomere is a molecule that exists at the end of DNA molecules.

All organisms are made up of cells. At the center of all cells is a
nucleus. Within the nucleus is a special molecule, DNA.
Deoxyribonucleic Acid. This is a sequence of smaller molecule
fragments called amino-acids. The amino acids pair off into
complementary pairs. DNA consists of two strings of complementary
amino-acids. Think of a zipper joined together.

At the ends of these complementary strands are telomeres - which join
them together.

When the cell divides the DNA unzips and the naked strands are floating
in a soupy fluid filled with free floating amino acids. From the soup
each naked strand attracts complementary amino acids and in this way,
the two naked strands clothe themselves. In the end, you have two
functioning strands of DNA!

What happens to the telomere when this happens? It breaks apart and
shortened telomeres attach to the ends of BOTH DNA molecules. The two
DNA molecules operate independently - and the cell begins to divide.

Each daughter cell has a shortened telomeric molecule.

After 50 divisions the telomeres are very short, and the cell does not
divide any longer.

Can telomeres be lengthened? Yes!

During pregnancy cells divide at a rapid rate - growing from one cell
to an entire organism in 9 months. The telomeres of infants are just
as robust as the telomeres of the first cell that started the process.
Why is this? TELOMERASE!

There is a substance present during pregnancy, called telomerase, that
rebuilds telomeric chains after each division. Its a simple molecule
to make and rather easily tolerated. Unfortunately, it is a powerful
carcinogen - causing cells to divide uncontrollably after exposure to
it in the adult organism. So, obviously, there is something more going
on during pregnancy to balance these effects. This is the focus of
current research in this area.

But, within the next 20 to 30 years we can expect two things;

(1) Drugs that slow division of cell with little or no side effects -
that allow extension of life well beyond 100 years
(2) Drugs that end cellular senescence and allow life extension to
indefinite ages

together these drugs will maintain physically youthful bodies
indefinitely.

The drugs will be welcomed universally and quite easy and cheap to make
and so will become widely available. Any attempt to restrict the use
of this drug would attract significant negative attention and such
restrictions would be short lived.

Imagine a time when a youth serum was found. Young adults taking it
wouldn't age. Older adults taking it would have their youth restored.
You are saying that elderly people over the age of 65 if suddenly
presented with their youth restored to 25 would sit on their ass and
collect social security. I have greater faith in humanity - and I know
too, being 50 something, that having one's vitality restored would be
one of the most empowering and enabling experiences one could go
through! The baby boomers if they were presented with a youth serum
when the bulk of them were in their 70s - and have their 20 year old
bodies restored in good health - would awaken and create far more
wealth then they had all the time previous!

This is a very positive transformation of society - and life and love
would be spread far and wide.

People's sensitivity to things would change when death no longer occurs
to all. This will change people's outlook on punishment. They will
create social systems that do not require punishment at all - so the
ultimate punishment will be thrown out with all the rest.

Person's Puppeteers are are fictional extraterrestrial species created
by Larry Niven in his Ringworld novels. They do not exist except as a
fiction.

A person snatched from the jaws of death due to old age by a youth
serum that restores the energy and vitality and joys of youth - is
likely to view each day as a great gift to be used wisely to achieve
their deepest dreams. A population of such people - baby boomers whose
youth is restored - are likely to be like Christ and Buddah.

Scott, people today are hiding in gated communities and behind armies
of police and soldiers to keep what they have amidst a vast ocean of
poverty. In a world with everyone more vital, more energetic, more
pumped - than today... in a world with greater energy resources,
greater intelligence resources, greater communication resources,
greater labor resources - due to robotics, greater resources all around
- there is every reason to believe vast new productive capacities will
be created and used to transform the world of today into a world of
plenty and vast wealth so that even the poorest of us then will seem as
millionaires to us primitives that live today.

Your responses, like those of Pat, are borne of your limited
imagination, informed by looking backwards, not ahead.