Orion water landing on return?

Getting a bit more Apollo-like all the time:
http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/20...annot_ans.html
I think going with the scaled-up Apollo CM concept was a bad move right
from the get-go due to the diameter of the heatshield it requires. A
more Soyuz-shaped RV would have saved a lot of weight.

Pat

On Dec 5, 6:39 pm, Pat Flannery wrote:
Getting a bit more Apollo-like all the time:http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/20...annot_ans.html
I think going with the scaled-up Apollo CM concept was a bad move right
from the get-go due to the diameter of the heatshield it requires. A
more Soyuz-shaped RV would have saved a lot of weight.

Pat

They can''t or perhaps wouldn't dare accomplish another Apollo,
because we still have not a sufficient main rocket, nor have we even
created a viable prototype fly-by-rocket lander. In other words, it
would become a one way ticket to ride, that is unless first having
established that fuel depot within the moon's L1, and of still taking
at least 3 days for getting each rad-hard mission even that far.
- Brad Guth

Thanks for the update Pat! Looks like the water landing will give the
Navy a project to prep for, (LOL). I agree with Your comments on the
size and shape, (for LEO missions). The lunar missions, (or NEA), will
require this shape, (or a skip reentry plan). The reason given for the
choice of the apollo/blunt shape, was for landings to be planned/
targeted for land recovery. If We change to another shape, (i.e.,
soyuz, gemini, exterior profiles), it would be a big change right now.
I would also not wish to be the fella/gal that had to count on the
skip reentry plan. It worked for unmanned zond, (so the ruskies
claim). The gemini lunar plans would have used it too, (with many TPS
changes), but it was never tried, (as You know).

As for Brad's comments, (We went to the moon, (Get over it))! We have
the tech to get back. It is a data mining project right now. These
guys are going thru a major retooling, (from top to bottom). It is
sort of like the engineers at Microsoft trying to release a new
version of widows. They have to make it downwardly compatible with
existing platforms, (and everyone has a idea of what the new program
should do). What You see right now are engineering growing pains. The
program needs folks to give input from groups like ours, (to help show
our interest, and ideas). We do not need the freaks like You telling
fairy stories in postings, (It reflects badly on the forum base).

Have a great day,

Carl

surfduke wrote:
If We change to another shape, (i.e.,
soyuz, gemini, exterior profiles), it would be a big change right now.
I would also not wish to be the fella/gal that had to count on the
skip reentry plan. It worked for unmanned zond, (so the ruskies
claim). The gemini lunar plans would have used it too, (with many TPS
changes), but it was never tried, (as You know).


To some extent we did it with the Apollo returns, but they never left
the atmosphere completely during the skip, like the Zonds did. The
original plan was to have them do a exoatmospheric skip, but it was
found to be unnecessary.
Here's the G loads during a reentry from the Moon on Apollo 10 with the
dip in the middle being the partial skip:
http://history.nasa.gov/SP-368/p135b.htm

On Dec 6, 9:39 am, Pat Flannery wrote:
surfduke wrote:
If We change to another shape, (i.e.,
soyuz, gemini, exterior profiles), it would be a big change right now.
I would also not wish to be the fella/gal that had to count on the
skip reentry plan. It worked for unmanned zond, (so the ruskies
claim). The gemini lunar plans would have used it too, (with many TPS
changes), but it was never tried, (as You know).

To some extent we did it with the Apollo returns, but they never left
the atmosphere completely during the skip, like the Zonds did. The
original plan was to have them do a exoatmospheric skip, but it was
found to be unnecessary.
Here's the G loads during a reentry from the Moon on Apollo 10 with the
dip in the middle being the partial skip:http://history.nasa.gov/SP-368/p135b.htm

I still think the Big-G would have been the LEO ticket to ride. To bad
for history that it did not make it thru the mock-up stage.

Thanks for another cool link,

Carl

surfduke wrote:
I still think the Big-G would have been the LEO ticket to ride. To bad
for history that it did not make it thru the mock-up stage.


The only real problem with it was the lack of a nose crew transfer
tunnel as originally designed:
http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/z/zbiggemi.jpg
You could have it dock tail-end first, but if we used our standard
manual docking method, that means windows and a second set of RCS
controls back in the rear section where the cargo and living quarters
would be at.
Another problem was that they intended to use the parawing for landing
to avoid using the amount of parachutes its weight would require to land
on the ground: http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/b/biglandg.jpg
And as NASA found out, the parawing had serious safety problems.
This drawing shows a Big Gemini being launched by a cluster of five SRBs
with a S-IVB as a upper stage:
http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/b/bigsivb.jpg
I assume that's supposed to operate with the four outboard SRBs as stage
one, the core SRB as stage two, and the S-IVB as stage three. Which
sounds like Ares 1 with strap-ons.
Looking at the size of the SRBs, these could be where the ones on the
Shuttle came from.
Here's the Encyclopedia Astronautica article on it:
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/bigemini.htm
What Big Gemini resembles in concept is a Soviet TKS module with a Zarya
spacecraft attached to its front end:
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/tks.html
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/zarya.htm

Pat

surfduke wrote:

Thanks for the update Pat! Looks like the water landing will give the
Navy a project to prep for, (LOL).

Something I suspect the Navy will not be overly happy with. The brass
in the E ring will be overjoyed for the publicity - but the working
troops in Norfolk and Pearl will not be pleased at all with yet
another 'unfunded mandate'.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

"Derek Lyons" wrote in message
...
surfduke wrote:

Thanks for the update Pat! Looks like the water landing will give the
Navy a project to prep for, (LOL).

Something I suspect the Navy will not be overly happy with. The brass
in the E ring will be overjoyed for the publicity - but the working
troops in Norfolk and Pearl will not be pleased at all with yet
another 'unfunded mandate'.


Oh, but I'm sure with all the money that NASA will be saving they'll be able
to pay the costs and have a huge party to boot.

And besides, REAL space programs have splashdowns. Don't you remember
Apollo? When Men were Men and space capsules were space capsules and small
furry creatures from Alpha Centuri were small furry creatures from Alpha
Centuri!

Or something like that.


Is it to late to put a stop to Ares and Orion?


--
Greg Moore
SQL Server DBA Consulting Remote and Onsite available!
Email: sql (at) greenms.com http://www.greenms.com/sqlserver.html

And besides, REAL space programs have splashdowns. Don't you remember
Apollo? When Men were Men and space capsules were space capsules and small
furry creatures from Alpha Centuri were small furry creatures from Alpha
Centuri!

Love this one, (We should put it on banner for the recovery ship)!

Carl

On Thu, 6 Dec 2007 16:48:23 -0500, in a place far, far away, "Greg D.
Moore \(Strider\)" made the phosphor
on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:



"Derek Lyons" wrote in message
...
surfduke wrote:

Thanks for the update Pat! Looks like the water landing will give the
Navy a project to prep for, (LOL).

Something I suspect the Navy will not be overly happy with. The brass
in the E ring will be overjoyed for the publicity - but the working
troops in Norfolk and Pearl will not be pleased at all with yet
another 'unfunded mandate'.


Oh, but I'm sure with all the money that NASA will be saving they'll be able
to pay the costs and have a huge party to boot.

And besides, REAL space programs have splashdowns. Don't you remember
Apollo? When Men were Men and space capsules were space capsules and small
furry creatures from Alpha Centuri were small furry creatures from Alpha
Centuri!

Or something like that.


Is it to late to put a stop to Ares and Orion?

I doubt if Ares will survive another year. It certainly won't survive
the next administration, regardless of who wins.