Oh dear..... clueless ESA thinks it discovered water on Mars...

In recent years a few Americans have started to worry about Europe falling far
behind the United States. I am so glad that Europe has finally got around to
discovering water on Mars. ;-)


A discovery which America appears to have made over 30 years ago.


Below are some quotes from "On Mars: Exploration of the Red Planet"
http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4212/ch11.html

From a description of MAriner 7, which flew past MArs in 1969.

"Mariner 6 and 7 data did strengthen the earlier conclusion that water was
extremely scarce on Mars and that was a seriously limiting factor for the
search for life. While no clouds, frosts, or fogs had been seen in the new
pictures, minute amounts of water vapor had been detected in the atmosphere."
(Ch 6 ,Section 180)

From a description of the infrared instrument on the Viking orbiters, which
orbited Mars in 1976.

"A more important contribution from the infrared thermal-mapping experiment was
the discovery of the nature of the polar ice cap. One of the major questions
posed by the Mariner 9 data was the composition of the residual polar cap left
when the winter polar cap, made of frozen carbon dioxide, retreated in
midsummer. A major controversy existed over whether this summer cap seas also
frozen carbon dioxide or was frozen water. According to Viking data, the
temperatures of the residual cap are near -68° to -63°C, making a case for
water frost." (Ch11,Section 373)

" The water-vapor-mapping investigation was designed to map the distribution of
water vapor over the planet and to determine the pressure of the atmosphere at
the level where vapor is present. Understanding the distribution of water vapor
is crucial to understanding the geological features of Mars and the possibility
of the existence of life. Viking's measurements of water vapor varied,
depending on the location, season, and time of day.

snip

Interestingly, while the amounts of vapor at some latitudes changed
dramatically, the total global water remained almost constant at the equivalent
of about one cubic kilometer of ice. The largest amounts observed were found
over the dark polar region, which is inaccessible to Earth-bound observers.
Maximum vapor column abundances of about 100 precipitable micrometers were
measured adjacent to the residual cap itself-a very large amount considering
the temperature of the surface and atmosphere in this region." The Mars
atmospheric water detector also confirmed the conclusion that the residual cap
is made of frozen water and that the atmosphere above it is saturated with
vapor during the polar summer. 23 "
(Ch11,SEction 374)


And here is a Dec 6, 1998 release from NASA on the results of the laser
altimeter carried by Mars Global Surveyor.

"This first three-dimensional picture of Mars' north pole enables scientists to
estimate the volume of its water ice cap with unprecedented precision, and to
study its surface variations and the heights of clouds in the region for the
first time."

http://ltpwww.gsfc.nasa.gov/tharsis/agu_f98.html

MAny people are also aware of the detection of hydrogen ( and hence water) by
Mars Odyssey's neutron spectrometer.


I'm not sure wether this story about Europe "discovering " water on Mars is the
fault of ESA or clueless journalists. ESA's website and the BBC appear to have
a clue and don't call this a discovery. However, it does sound as if some ESA
scientists said it was.

What really concerns me is the apparent inability of European scientists to
conduct a basic literature search. It really make you wonder about the
competence of Europe's Mars reseachers. From this side of the Atlantic they
look like first-class idiots.

In article , Schrodinger333 wrote:

MAny people are also aware of the detection of hydrogen ( and hence water) by
Mars Odyssey's neutron spectrometer.

Note there's a fine difference. MO found some results which could only
be plausibly explained by water; MEX spectrographically observed ice.
With a planet that's thrown as many surprises as Mars, automatically
equating the two is a trifle fast ;-)

What really concerns me is the apparent inability of European scientists to
conduct a basic literature search. It really make you wonder about the
competence of Europe's Mars reseachers. From this side of the Atlantic they
look like first-class idiots.

You know, I'd be willing to stake a first assumption that people who are
tasked with interpreting data from a spacecraft might at least have
glanced at a Janet-And-John summary before...

ESA announced that it had discovered water at the south polar cap; this
is a first. Water had been known elsewhere, and there were strong
indications that it was present in the South, but this had never been
proven.More to the point, the didn't discover strong evidence for water,
or indirect evidence of it being there, they actually observed it. They
put out a press release saying, in essence, "We found water on Mars -
here's the gist..." and then suffered from a large number of journalists
not bothering to quite get past the first couple of words.

--
-Andrew Gray

Andrew Gray wrote:

In article , Schrodinger333 wrote:


MAny people are also aware of the detection of hydrogen ( and hence water) by
Mars Odyssey's neutron spectrometer.



Note there's a fine difference. MO found some results which could only
be plausibly explained by water; MEX spectrographically observed ice.
With a planet that's thrown as many surprises as Mars, automatically
equating the two is a trifle fast ;-)



What really concerns me is the apparent inability of European scientists to
conduct a basic literature search. It really make you wonder about the
competence of Europe's Mars reseachers. From this side of the Atlantic they
look like first-class idiots.



You know, I'd be willing to stake a first assumption that people who are
tasked with interpreting data from a spacecraft might at least have
glanced at a Janet-And-John summary before...

ESA announced that it had discovered water at the south polar cap; this
is a first. Water had been known elsewhere, and there were strong
indications that it was present in the South, but this had never been
proven.More to the point, the didn't discover strong evidence for water,
or indirect evidence of it being there, they actually observed it. They
put out a press release saying, in essence, "We found water on Mars -
here's the gist..." and then suffered from a large number of journalists
not bothering to quite get past the first couple of words.

Yes. In fact the article about it in the French Libération newspaper
clearly states that.
"Après les observations de Viking dans les années 70, on connaissait la
présence d'eau
au pôle Nord. Cette fois, nous avons sa confirmation au pôle Sud."
[After Viking observations
in the 70's, we knew there was water at the North pole. This time, we
confirm its presence
at the South pole.] If the journalist from your local newspaper didn't
parse carefully the
ESA anouncement, don't blame European scientist for it.

Alain Fournier

For the first time ever, some water (ice) has been discovered on Mars, BY A
DIRECT WAY, thanks to the devices built on board Mars Express.

Before that (until Mars Odyssey), that was only INDIRECT evidence of water
presence !

MARS EXPRESS gives the first direct proof : a chemical spectral signature of
H2O.

In two months the MARSIS radar should look for water to a depth of 4-5 km
under Mars surface.

It would be fair to admit the exact discoveries made by EU...

G.des Courtils

"Schrodinger333" a écrit dans le message de
...
In recent years a few Americans have started to worry about Europe falling
far
behind the United States. I am so glad that Europe has finally got around
to
discovering water on Mars. ;-)


A discovery which America appears to have made over 30 years ago.


Below are some quotes from "On Mars: Exploration of the Red Planet"
http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4212/ch11.html

From a description of MAriner 7, which flew past MArs in 1969.

"Mariner 6 and 7 data did strengthen the earlier conclusion that water was
extremely scarce on Mars and that was a seriously limiting factor for the
search for life. While no clouds, frosts, or fogs had been seen in the new
pictures, minute amounts of water vapor had been detected in the
atmosphere."
(Ch 6 ,Section 180)

From a description of the infrared instrument on the Viking orbiters,
which
orbited Mars in 1976.

"A more important contribution from the infrared thermal-mapping
experiment was
the discovery of the nature of the polar ice cap. One of the major
questions
posed by the Mariner 9 data was the composition of the residual polar cap
left
when the winter polar cap, made of frozen carbon dioxide, retreated in
midsummer. A major controversy existed over whether this summer cap seas
also
frozen carbon dioxide or was frozen water. According to Viking data, the
temperatures of the residual cap are near -68° to -63°C, making a case for
water frost." (Ch11,Section 373)

" The water-vapor-mapping investigation was designed to map the
distribution of
water vapor over the planet and to determine the pressure of the
atmosphere at
the level where vapor is present. Understanding the distribution of water
vapor
is crucial to understanding the geological features of Mars and the
possibility
of the existence of life. Viking's measurements of water vapor varied,
depending on the location, season, and time of day.

snip

Interestingly, while the amounts of vapor at some latitudes changed
dramatically, the total global water remained almost constant at the
equivalent
of about one cubic kilometer of ice. The largest amounts observed were
found
over the dark polar region, which is inaccessible to Earth-bound
observers.
Maximum vapor column abundances of about 100 precipitable micrometers were
measured adjacent to the residual cap itself-a very large amount
considering
the temperature of the surface and atmosphere in this region." The Mars
atmospheric water detector also confirmed the conclusion that the residual
cap
is made of frozen water and that the atmosphere above it is saturated with
vapor during the polar summer. 23 "
(Ch11,SEction 374)


And here is a Dec 6, 1998 release from NASA on the results of the laser
altimeter carried by Mars Global Surveyor.

"This first three-dimensional picture of Mars' north pole enables
scientists to
estimate the volume of its water ice cap with unprecedented precision, and
to
study its surface variations and the heights of clouds in the region for
the
first time."

http://ltpwww.gsfc.nasa.gov/tharsis/agu_f98.html

MAny people are also aware of the detection of hydrogen ( and hence water)
by
Mars Odyssey's neutron spectrometer.


I'm not sure wether this story about Europe "discovering " water on Mars
is the
fault of ESA or clueless journalists. ESA's website and the BBC appear to
have
a clue and don't call this a discovery. However, it does sound as if some
ESA
scientists said it was.

What really concerns me is the apparent inability of European scientists
to
conduct a basic literature search. It really make you wonder about the
competence of Europe's Mars reseachers. From this side of the Atlantic
they
look like first-class idiots.

Alain Fournier wrote in part:


Yes. In fact the article about it in the French Libération newspaper
clearly states that.
"Après les observations de Viking dans les années 70, on connaissait la
présence d'eau
au pôle Nord. Cette fois, nous avons sa confirmation au pôle Sud."
[After Viking observations
in the 70's, we knew there was water at the North pole. This time, we
confirm its presence
at the South pole.] If the journalist from your local newspaper didn't
parse carefully the
ESA anouncement, don't blame European scientist for it.

Alain Fournier


Nice try. I'm afraid the American public is more interested in a
math-and-science-free "USA! USA! USA! vs. The World Battle" than real
news and analysis. The press is giving them what they want. I'm not in
Europe, but I'm guessing their news media are just as superficial at times.

Let's hope the scientists everywhere are passing up on this BS and
working on getting the most out of these space probes.

Corry
--
It Came From C. L. Smith's Unclaimed Mysteries.
http://www.unclaimedmysteries.net

I don't believe they're idiots at all. I suppose it's possible that they
truly think they're "first" with this discovery, as the European mindset
about things American is pretty warped at times, but I believe it's more a
matter of a desire to manipulate the media with triumphalism. As I noted in
another post, 'news' coming out of Europe the past several years has the
familiar nationalistic ring of the People's Daily reporting on China,
whereas in America the news tends to always skew toward the problems,
potential problems and concerns.

Alain Fournier wrote:

Andrew Gray wrote:

In article ,
Schrodinger333 wrote:

MAny people are also aware of the detection of hydrogen ( and hence
water) by
Mars Odyssey's neutron spectrometer.

Note there's a fine difference. MO found some results which could
only
be plausibly explained by water; MEX spectrographically observed
ice.
With a planet that's thrown as many surprises as Mars, automatically
equating the two is a trifle fast ;-)


What really concerns me is the apparent inability of European
scientists to
conduct a basic literature search. It really make you wonder about
the
competence of Europe's Mars reseachers. From this side of the
Atlantic they
look like first-class idiots.

You know, I'd be willing to stake a first assumption that people who
are
tasked with interpreting data from a spacecraft might at least have
glanced at a Janet-And-John summary before...

ESA announced that it had discovered water at the south polar cap;
this
is a first. Water had been known elsewhere, and there were strong
indications that it was present in the South, but this had never
been
proven.More to the point, the didn't discover strong evidence for
water,
or indirect evidence of it being there, they actually observed it.
They
put out a press release saying, in essence, "We found water on Mars
-
here's the gist..." and then suffered from a large number of
journalists
not bothering to quite get past the first couple of words.

Yes. In fact the article about it in the French Libération newspaper
clearly states that.
"Après les observations de Viking dans les années 70, on connaissait
la présence d'eau
au pôle Nord. Cette fois, nous avons sa confirmation au pôle Sud."
[After Viking observations
in the 70's, we knew there was water at the North pole. This time, we
confirm its presence
at the South pole.] If the journalist from your local newspaper didn't
parse carefully the
ESA anouncement, don't blame European scientist for it.

Alain Fournier

This is another idiotic Usenet argument that I certainly hope is
confined to
the clueless though usually well informed group that is constantly
looking
for something to complain about and particularly if it involves bashing
Europeans.

The Europeans reviewed the previous data obtained by NASA probes
and satellites and chose a set of instrumentation to get new data sets.
They found what their instruments interpreted as water from their new
findings and put out a press release on the matter. Their readings were

new data and apparently covered either a different region than the NASA
data or covered it in more detail.

The only people who look like first class idiots are those who accuse
the European scientists of failing to do a proper literature search and
base the remarks on a press release quoted from the media.

Mike Walsh

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 11:54:38 -0800, Michael Walsh
wrote:



The only people who look like first class idiots are those who accuse
the European scientists of failing to do a proper literature search and
base the remarks on a press release quoted from the media.

Mike Walsh




Right on the money Mike...

Figueroa looks like a pompus asshole... Kudos to the ESA.

I have a story about this on my website as well..


Al

http://spaceprojects.tk

"Géraud des Courtils" wrote in message
...
For the first time ever, some water (ice) has been discovered on Mars, BY
A
DIRECT WAY, thanks to the devices built on board Mars Express.

**snip**

You have been corrected and even included the correction in your post.
Yet you cut and paste your original statement over it without even
contesting the arguments against you. You, hearby, show yourself
to be a lying troll.

Michael Walsh wrote:

This is another idiotic Usenet argument that I certainly hope is
confined to
the clueless though usually well informed group that is constantly
looking
for something to complain about and particularly if it involves bashing
Europeans.

The Europeans reviewed the previous data obtained by NASA probes
and satellites and chose a set of instrumentation to get new data sets.
They found what their instruments interpreted as water from their new
findings and put out a press release on the matter. Their readings were

new data and apparently covered either a different region than the NASA
data or covered it in more detail.

The only people who look like first class idiots are those who accuse
the European scientists of failing to do a proper literature search and
base the remarks on a press release quoted from the media.

Mike Walsh

Well said!


--
Hop David
http://clowder.net/hop/index.html