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'Elektron' repair fails



 
 
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  #11  
Old September 14th 04, 04:02 PM
Jim Oberg
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Good comments, well said.

"John Doe" wrote in message ...
And with all the years in service, you'd think Boeing would have predicted
that a spark due to frayed wiring could cause a fuel tank to explode in a

747
and prevent TWA800. Many unpredictable things do happen over time.

Systems that use liquids in 0g cannot really be tested on earth. They are
tested and debugged while in orbit. And as time goes on, they discover new
problems that crop up. That is what the space station is REALLY all about.

Not
research on how to grow crystals, but how to make and maintain/fix systems
that are in long term use.

They'll find the solution to elektron, and this event will contribute to

the
elektron maintenance manual, MTBF statistics and resupply requirements

over
the long term.

And if we had to go to mars today, I'd trust Elektron far more than some
newfangled USA (or other country) O2 generator that has not been tested in
space yet. There have been enough failures of elektron to have a good idea

of
how much and what maintenance will be required over a long period.



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  #12  
Old September 14th 04, 09:12 PM
Sam Seiber
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Jim Oberg wrote:

Good comments, well said.


Jim, OM is going to have your ass for quoting the whole article
just to add that you agree!

Sam
  #13  
Old September 14th 04, 11:51 PM
Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)
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"John Doe" wrote in message ...
"Greg D. Moore (Strider)" wrote:
And of course compare, how many years have the Russians been working on
Elektron in orbit vs. the American system. You'd think my now they'd

have a
bit more bugs worked out.


And with all the years in service, you'd think Boeing would have predicted
that a spark due to frayed wiring could cause a fuel tank to explode in a

747
and prevent TWA800. Many unpredictable things do happen over time.


If 747s were falling out of the air as often as Elektron fails, we'd still
be taking ships across the Atlantic.



Systems that use liquids in 0g cannot really be tested on earth. They are
tested and debugged while in orbit. And as time goes on, they discover new
problems that crop up. That is what the space station is REALLY all about.

Not
research on how to grow crystals, but how to make and maintain/fix systems
that are in long term use.


So in other words the purpose of living in space is to find out how to live
in space? A bit circular, wouldn't you say?



They'll find the solution to elektron, and this event will contribute to

the
elektron maintenance manual, MTBF statistics and resupply requirements

over
the long term.


I'd love to see the actual MTBF for Elektron. The perception at least is it
isn't all that great for something that's what, 20 year old technology at
this piont?


And if we had to go to mars today, I'd trust Elektron far more than some
newfangled USA (or other country) O2 generator that has not been tested in
space yet. There have been enough failures of elektron to have a good idea

of
how much and what maintenance will be required over a long period.


There have been enough failures of Elektron that I'd be insisting on
carrying a LOT more O2 cylinders... or staying home.



  #14  
Old September 14th 04, 11:52 PM
Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)
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"Jim Oberg" wrote in message
...

Good comments, well said.


Jim, for one, you better than to toppost and to quote an entire article.

And you're probably in a better position than most to get the actual stats
like MTBF, etc.



"John Doe" wrote in message

...
And with all the years in service, you'd think Boeing would have

predicted
that a spark due to frayed wiring could cause a fuel tank to explode in

a
747
and prevent TWA800. Many unpredictable things do happen over time.

Systems that use liquids in 0g cannot really be tested on earth. They

are
tested and debugged while in orbit. And as time goes on, they discover

new
problems that crop up. That is what the space station is REALLY all

about.
Not
research on how to grow crystals, but how to make and maintain/fix

systems
that are in long term use.

They'll find the solution to elektron, and this event will contribute to

the
elektron maintenance manual, MTBF statistics and resupply requirements

over
the long term.

And if we had to go to mars today, I'd trust Elektron far more than some
newfangled USA (or other country) O2 generator that has not been tested

in
space yet. There have been enough failures of elektron to have a good

idea
of
how much and what maintenance will be required over a long period.





  #15  
Old September 15th 04, 01:27 AM
Derek Lyons
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John Doe wrote:

"Greg D. Moore (Strider)" wrote:
And of course compare, how many years have the Russians been working on
Elektron in orbit vs. the American system. You'd think my now they'd have a
bit more bugs worked out.


And with all the years in service, you'd think Boeing would have predicted
that a spark due to frayed wiring could cause a fuel tank to explode in a 747
and prevent TWA800. Many unpredictable things do happen over time.


That sounds pretty sensible and persuasive, to the uneducated on the
issues. Sure Boeing knew frayed wiring was a hazard, they also knew
that frayed wiring in a fuel tank was a hazard. What they didn't
know, and had no reasonable way of knowing was that Flight 800 had
problems and that they were critical. Out here in the real world you
can't ground an aircraft type on a whim. (Assuming of course that
wiring was the cause of the problem... Something that's not known for
certain.)

Systems that use liquids in 0g cannot really be tested on earth. They are
tested and debugged while in orbit. And as time goes on, they discover new
problems that crop up. That is what the space station is REALLY all about. Not
research on how to grow crystals, but how to make and maintain/fix systems
that are in long term use.


Sensible. The problem is, the Russians advertised this as a
functional device ready for operational service. Like so much else
they have claimed, it's been shown to be a lie.

They'll find the solution to elektron, and this event will contribute to the
elektron maintenance manual, MTBF statistics and resupply requirements over
the long term.


That's nice. However, the Elektron isn't being manufactured any more.

And if we had to go to mars today, I'd trust Elektron far more than some
newfangled USA (or other country) O2 generator that has not been tested in
space yet. There have been enough failures of elektron to have a good idea of
how much and what maintenance will be required over a long period.


You'd be a fool. Correction... You be a *dead* damm fool.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
  #16  
Old September 15th 04, 01:27 AM
Derek Lyons
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"Jim Oberg" wrote:

Good comments, well said.


You bought his bilge Jim?

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
  #17  
Old September 15th 04, 01:28 AM
Derek Lyons
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Default

"Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" wrote:
Systems that use liquids in 0g cannot really be tested on earth. They are
tested and debugged while in orbit. And as time goes on, they discover new
problems that crop up. That is what the space station is REALLY all about.
Not research on how to grow crystals, but how to make and maintain/fix systems
that are in long term use.


So in other words the purpose of living in space is to find out how to live
in space? A bit circular, wouldn't you say?


No, he's saying what I've been saying for a while. LEO is the best
place to develop and test systems for eventual Mars/Asteroid missions.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
  #18  
Old September 15th 04, 02:42 AM
bob haller
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No, he's saying what I've been saying for a while. LEO is the best
place to develop and test systems for eventual Mars/Asteroid missions.


Thats certinally true for a first step, the second step should be a long term
moon base, and some circular trips to near earth asteroids.Take extended orbits
for long duration stays where in a emergency you can get back pretty fast.

Then begin nuclear propulsion and scale it up before attemopting a mars
mission.

Before crew leaves for Mars we should have already in orbit a mars orbiter
station, some mars lander bases all set up, a fast emergency supplies vehicle,
large power to weight to get needed emergency supplies to a mars transit
vehicle..

then and only then send the first crew flying with a backup vehicle either
attached or in a loose formation.
HAVE A GREAT DAY!
  #19  
Old September 15th 04, 03:01 AM
Mike Walsh
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Default


"Derek Lyons" wrote in message
...
"Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" wrote:
Systems that use liquids in 0g cannot really be tested on earth. They

are
tested and debugged while in orbit. And as time goes on, they discover

new
problems that crop up. That is what the space station is REALLY all

about.
Not research on how to grow crystals, but how to make and maintain/fix

systems
that are in long term use.


So in other words the purpose of living in space is to find out how to

live
in space? A bit circular, wouldn't you say?


No, he's saying what I've been saying for a while. LEO is the best
place to develop and test systems for eventual Mars/Asteroid missions.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.


To the Russians credit, they actually have a working system up there and
if their Elektron fails then they might have to burn one of their
oxygen generating "candles" that have worked so well in the
past, at least if they didn't cause a major fire.

This makes me wonder just how much clout NASA has over the
Russian equipment that goes on the ISS. I would hope that they
are able to insist on some insight on the equipment, particularly
things such as safety hazards.

One negative is that I don't believe we even know whether or not
Russia has anyone actually spending the money to have any organization
actively trying to improve Elektron.

It appears to me that rather than accepting the Russian equipment as
super-qualified because it has been around for a long time that a
combined U.S. Russian program to improve certain specific
capabilities (Elektron, space suits, oxygen generating devices) could
be very productive.

Although probably tied up by political realities.

Mike Walsh


  #20  
Old September 15th 04, 05:19 AM
Derek Lyons
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"Mike Walsh" wrote:
To the Russians credit, they actually have a working system up there


Where? Certainly not Elektron.

This makes me wonder just how much clout NASA has over the
Russian equipment that goes on the ISS. I would hope that they
are able to insist on some insight on the equipment, particularly
things such as safety hazards.


NASA has a history of hiding and covering up Russian safety
shortcomings. IIRC, JimO has a copy on his website of a report
documenting this.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
 




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