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#111
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Speed of Flowing Space into Mass (was - Einstein was an...)
"Phineas T Puddleduck" wrote...
in message news In article , "Painius" wrote: Okay, in science the word "accelerate" actually can be positive or negative. And of course, a "negative acceleration" would be a "deceleration". I'm taking you to mean that the flow of space is a positive acceleration as it approaches a gravity well. Space "speeds up" as it enters the mass of a planet or a star. I realize that you're just another coffeeboi, Puddleduck, but i'll be glad to tolerate you, since even coffeebois have a perfect right to be here. And what does this space accelerate, decelerate in reference too. Is it turtles all the way down? I don't know the answer to this, other than to say that, no, i don't think it's turtles all the way down, Puddleduck. We [tinw] *do* know how earthly things flow, such as the ocean flowing in reference to the sea bottom, the adjacent coastlines and even to other parts of the ocean. As for space, the main attractive reference would be whatever it is that may act as a container and medium to which flowing space can be referenced. This would be akin to asking, "What was in existence before the Big Bang?" or "What is space expanding *into*?" and these are, for now, questions without adequate and meaningful answers. On a more practical level, we may be able to say that space flows in reference to mass, or perhaps more accurately, space flows with reference to gravity wells. Double-A brought out the analogy to Earthly electricity, with the emf or "voltage" in the Ohm's law formula... E = IR ....similar to the engine that "runs" flowing space, an engine called the "supra-cosmic overpressure" or "SCO". Flowing space itself then is roughly identified with the electrical current in the formula, or "I" (intensity of current). This may imply that there is an R somewhere in all this, and observations may strongly suggest that gravity wells provide the R (resistance) to flowing space. This would imply that space is flowing more slowly out among the stars, and perhaps even more slowly, kind of like molasses out between the galaxies and galaxy clusters. Here is an inconsistency as i see it. Utter rubbish Actually, i agree. It is a more sound idea that space flows very quickly out among the stars, and even faster out between the galaxies and clusters. The gravity wells of galaxies slow the flow of space, as do the gravity wells of stars, planets and even of atoms! Astronomy's observations indicate that space does expand, and it may expand at speeds that far exceed the speed of light without going against the special theory of relativity. Recent observations appear to indicate that the expansion of space is accelerating. All this tends to make me think that space outside our Solar System, and especially outside our Milky Way Galaxy, is flowing and expanding at extremely high speeds. Really? Funny how Hipparcos proves thats BS. What exactly are you saying that Hipparcos is disproving, Puddleduck? Keep in mind that this experiment is very limited in its scope. So it is more consistent to think that flowing space must SLOW DOWN to enter galaxies, stars and planets. So many words, so little science. Step away from the bong, saucerheads. You will get no argument from me that the concept of flowing space is no more truly a scientific concept than is quantum gravity or GR. None of that is science either in terms of explaining the cause of gravity. The only reason QG and GR are *recognized" as being science is because they are the brainchilds of scientists. You, Puddleduck, would be wise to keep in mind that the concept of flowing space is to be considered as quite possibly the brainchild of old Albert Einstein himself... ". . . one should not desist from pursuing to the end the path of the relativistic field theory." A little earlier in _Relativity: The Special and the General Theory_ Einstein wrote... "By this is meant a theory which describes exhaustively physical reality, including four- dimensional space, by a field." Since, at the time, Einstein had discarded the idea of a static, non-moving "ether", one can only conclude that he was talking about space as being a field that is non-static and moving, a flowing field... flowing space (!) happy days and... starry starry nights! -- The best things in life are here and now! Indelibly yours, Paine http://www.savethechildren.org/ http://www.painellsworth.net |
#112
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Speed of Flowing Space into Mass (was - Einstein was an...)
"Bill Sheppard" wrote...
in message ... From Painius re. 'hadronic flow': Here is a major inconsistency in Wolter's argument. Space speeds up a lot going into the Sun. Space speeds up less going into Jupiter, even less going into Earth, and even less going into Mars. So the less mass involved, it would seem the less space speeds up. So why isn't it going its SLOWEST speed into an atom, the smallest mass of all? Well, Wolter had no 'argument' per se. I see what you mean, Bill, but i was using "argument" in more of a "theory" context, i.e., an argument for the CBB model which opposes the void-space paradigm. He pictured the proton as a microscale black hole analog replete with its own 'event horizon'. It would be my conjecture then, that the flow hits the speed of light as it enters the nucleus, just as it does when it enters a BH. Wolter pictured the subnuclear domain as not part the external universe since it does not *directly* participate in the Unified Field of Spatial Flows 'out here'. That's why he excluded the Weak force, seeing it as more of a 'subset' of the Strong force. Regarding the disparite inflow velocities you cite at the surface of planets, suns etc., you gotta think of these bodies as aggregate collections of protons. The bigger the aggregate, the bigger the collective 'sink' it forms, and the greater the inflow velocity. When the aggregate is sufficiently massive to form a BH, the inflow velocity then equals the inflow velocity of its constituent protons, which is the speed of light. Wolter didn't go into this much detail, but i'm extrapolating here from his basic model of the proton as a microscale BH analog. It's still very hard for me to see how the flow would accelerate to c into a proton, accelerate so much, much less into Mercury, then more again into Mars, Earth, Jupiter and ultimately into a BH, specially one at the center of a galaxy. Recent observations appear to indicate that the expansion of space is accelerating. All this tends to make me think that space outside our Solar System, and especially outside our Milky Way Galaxy, is flowing and expanding at extremely high speeds. What recent observations? Presumably you're referrin' to the 1a supernova dimming, which is observed at extreme cosmological distances, not in our immediale galactic environs. If such expansion were occuring 'locally' (ie, out to a radius of a few billion LY or so), we oughta be seeing excessive dimming and reddening locally, which is not the case. oc We must remember that even very great speeds are perceived as being very slow, even not there at all, when the distances are great. We might have a handle on radial velocities, but at great distances the lateral, side-to-side or transverse velocity (aka "proper motion") is as yet impossible to detect and measure at galactic distances. So this is not really a good way to determine the speed(s) of expanding, flowing space, or whether these speeds are fast or slow. happy days and... starry starry nights! -- The best things in life are here and now! Indelibly yours, Paine http://www.savethechildren.org/ http://www.painellsworth.net |
#113
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Speed of Flowing Space into Mass (was - Einstein was an...)
"Bill Sheppard" wrote in message...
... From NB: The trouble in trying to get profound original thought to final understanding of the clueless is that they are normally too busy comparing copied notes and search engine findings... Yeah, they shoulda starred in the Wizard of Oz as one of those 'challenged' characters, with the lament "If I Only Had a Brain." :-) oc My favorite from that one is "Over the Rainbow" on which Judy Garland did an exquisite job! I sometimes picture Shirley Temple singing this song. She turned down the role of "Dorothy" before it was offered to Garland. And this gave Judy a "foot-in-the-door" into Hollywood. Betcha Temple et al. regretted that one! So how 'bout this, Bill... Black Holes are not the only ones that have a Schwarzschild surface (event horizon). ALL gravity wells have such a surface, and they are not as well-defined as that of a BH. So here comes flowing space toward the Solar System. As it approaches the SS of our Sun, the resistance slows flowing space to a speed determined mostly by the mass of the Sun. At this point, space then begins once again to accelerate toward the Sun, reaching maximum speed at the surface of the Sun. If a planet like Jupiter gets in the way of this essentially Solar spaceflow, the SS of the planet serves as a resistance to the flow, and space must slow way down at the planet's SS so that it may accelerate into the planet. How much it slows down, and how fast it enters the surface of the planet is governed mainly by the mass of the planet. happy days and... starry starry nights! -- The best things in life are here and now! Indelibly yours, Paine http://www.savethechildren.org/ http://www.painellsworth.net |
#114
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Speed of Flowing Space into Mass (was - Einstein was an...)
nightbat wrote
Painius wrote: "Bill Sheppard" wrote... in message ... From Painius re. 'hadronic flow': Here is a major inconsistency in Wolter's argument. Space speeds up a lot going into the Sun. Space speeds up less going into Jupiter, even less going into Earth, and even less going into Mars. So the less mass involved, it would seem the less space speeds up. So why isn't it going its SLOWEST speed into an atom, the smallest mass of all? Well, Wolter had no 'argument' per se. I see what you mean, Bill, but i was using "argument" in more of a "theory" context, i.e., an argument for the CBB model which opposes the void-space paradigm. He pictured the proton as a microscale black hole analog replete with its own 'event horizon'. It would be my conjecture then, that the flow hits the speed of light as it enters the nucleus, just as it does when it enters a BH. Wolter pictured the subnuclear domain as not part the external universe since it does not *directly* participate in the Unified Field of Spatial Flows 'out here'. That's why he excluded the Weak force, seeing it as more of a 'subset' of the Strong force. Regarding the disparite inflow velocities you cite at the surface of planets, suns etc., you gotta think of these bodies as aggregate collections of protons. The bigger the aggregate, the bigger the collective 'sink' it forms, and the greater the inflow velocity. When the aggregate is sufficiently massive to form a BH, the inflow velocity then equals the inflow velocity of its constituent protons, which is the speed of light. Wolter didn't go into this much detail, but i'm extrapolating here from his basic model of the proton as a microscale BH analog. It's still very hard for me to see how the flow would accelerate to c into a proton, accelerate so much, much less into Mercury, then more again into Mars, Earth, Jupiter and ultimately into a BH, specially one at the center of a galaxy. Recent observations appear to indicate that the expansion of space is accelerating. All this tends to make me think that space outside our Solar System, and especially outside our Milky Way Galaxy, is flowing and expanding at extremely high speeds. What recent observations? Presumably you're referrin' to the 1a supernova dimming, which is observed at extreme cosmological distances, not in our immediale galactic environs. If such expansion were occuring 'locally' (ie, out to a radius of a few billion LY or so), we oughta be seeing excessive dimming and reddening locally, which is not the case. oc We must remember that even very great speeds are perceived as being very slow, even not there at all, when the distances are great. We might have a handle on radial velocities, but at great distances the lateral, side-to-side or transverse velocity (aka "proper motion") is as yet impossible to detect and measure at galactic distances. So this is not really a good way to determine the speed(s) of expanding, flowing space, or whether these speeds are fast or slow. happy days and... starry starry nights! nightbat Hello Officer Painius it is always good to see your posts and devotion to science theoretical inquiry. The coffee boys being what they are silly disruptive clueless ones including the occasional new ones that invade from time to time should never deter you from your excellent deep pondering. The important concept that Officer oc presents via Wolter's model is the space flow premise via unique outer Universe engine model to which at least it tries to help provide a causation for gravity and Universe internal dynamics. Wolter was perceptive in deducing a need for first cause motive action model to hopefully explain ongoing field effects of which at his time including to date as you well know were and are severely lacking. Not until the nightbat and my long ago spotting of Officers oc's for Wolters net presentation has any other concept even come close to disclosing a more viable theoretical premise. The applied Wolter field formulation logic is brilliant for attempt to close gravitation loop problem and unification. The trouble however for deep field hopeful unification theorists and mathematicians is we have one observed physical Universe and the perimeters for acceptable model per observable co-Peer verification and confirmation are therefore quite restricting without going into hyper inter-dimensional, multiverse, outerverse (Wolter's), parallelverse, multi branes, multiple strings, imagined theoretical non evidence based extensions. The attempted field unification task is by no means minute or expedient for no comparable acceptable frame model has ever existed in out space time. Even without ultimate first cause actual identification a practical relative applicable model to at least dynamic effects explanation is needed without reserve. In other words a theoretical to real world applicable working premise for gravity causation is needed for field gravitational loop closure and fundamental field dynamics base understanding. Man made applied coordinates are viable without true field internal first cause understanding yet resultant practical full knowledge internal field theory and extensions are naturally therefore subjugated and unity lacking. The nightbat discovery of field unification was as Dr. Einstein perceived beyond normal human grasp for no comparable model ever existed. No previous math's or examineable mathematical equations or proofs therefore could unity assist or applied extensions permit and enlightenly disclose what has never existed for examination. The verifiable proof however was in discovered field latent memory, lending to every physical energy/mass particle knowing its present relative position to where it should field original position place be or versus to original field pure uniform momentum. ponder on, the nightbat |
#115
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Speed of Flowing Space (was - Einstein was an...)
In article
, "Painius" wrote: Utter, utter rubbish. And you're certain of this because . . . (?) Because gravity propagates at c. -- You know you've arrived when you've annoyed the cranks! Crank Hater proves his stupidity here! http://groups.google.gr/group/sci.ph...76a3a4b?&hl=en -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
#116
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Speed of Flowing Space into Mass (was - Einstein was an...)
In article
, "Painius" wrote: I realize that you're just another coffeeboi, Puddleduck, but i'll be glad to tolerate you, since even coffeebois have a perfect right to be here. I am so honoured. And what does this space accelerate, decelerate in reference too. Is it turtles all the way down? I don't know the answer to this, other than to say that, no, i don't think it's turtles all the way down, Puddleduck. We [tinw] *do* know how earthly things flow, such as the ocean flowing in reference to the sea bottom, the adjacent coastlines and even to other parts of the ocean. As for space, the main attractive reference would be whatever it is that may act as a container and medium to which flowing space can be referenced. So all you are doing is adding another layer of complexity, with no grounds in physical reality, just to pretend you are a scientist. This would be akin to asking, "What was in existence before the Big Bang?" or "What is space expanding *into*?" and these are, for now, questions without adequate and meaningful answers. Most of your questions are reasonably meaningless. On a more practical level, we may be able to say that space flows in reference to mass, or perhaps more accurately, space flows with reference to gravity wells. Double-A brought out the analogy to Earthly electricity, with the emf or "voltage" in the Ohm's law formula... E = IR ...similar to the engine that "runs" flowing space, an engine called the "supra-cosmic overpressure" or "SCO". Flowing space itself then is roughly identified with the electrical current in the formula, or "I" (intensity of current). This may imply that there is an R somewhere in all this, and observations may strongly suggest that gravity wells provide the R (resistance) to flowing space. Utter crap. Actually, i agree. It is a more sound idea that space flows very quickly out among the stars, and even faster out between the galaxies and clusters. The gravity wells of galaxies slow the flow of space, as do the gravity wells of stars, planets and even of atoms! And your observational evidence is? Really? Funny how Hipparcos proves thats BS. What exactly are you saying that Hipparcos is disproving, Puddleduck? Keep in mind that this experiment is very limited in its scope. Everything you are saying about the nature of space local to the sun. So it is more consistent to think that flowing space must SLOW DOWN to enter galaxies, stars and planets. So many words, so little science. Step away from the bong, saucerheads. You will get no argument from me that the concept of flowing space is no more truly a scientific concept than is quantum gravity or GR. None of that is science either in terms of explaining the cause of gravity. The only reason QG and GR are *recognized" as being science is because they are the brainchilds of scientists. Um no, because they have been verified (Perihelion of Mercury, Hulse & Taylor....) You, Puddleduck, would be wise to keep in mind that the concept of flowing space is to be considered as quite possibly the brainchild of old Albert Einstein himself... So what? Fallacy of authority? Many people try to make proclamations about Einstein and vegetarianism but he wasn't a nutritionist. ". . . one should not desist from pursuing to the end the path of the relativistic field theory." A little earlier in _Relativity: The Special and the General Theory_ Einstein wrote... "By this is meant a theory which describes exhaustively physical reality, including four- dimensional space, by a field." Since, at the time, Einstein had discarded the idea of a static, non-moving "ether", one can only conclude that he was talking about space as being a field that is non-static and moving, a flowing field... Like Jane, putting words in a dead mans mouth. flowing space (!) happy days and... starry starry nights! -- You know you've arrived when you've annoyed the cranks! Crank Hater proves his stupidity here! http://groups.google.gr/group/sci.ph...76a3a4b?&hl=en -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
#117
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Speed of Flowing Space into Mass (was - Einstein was an...)
In article
, "Painius" wrote: Black Holes are not the only ones that have a Schwarzschild surface (event horizon). ALL gravity wells have such a surface, and they are not as well-defined as that of a BH. So here comes flowing space toward the Solar System. As it approaches the SS of our Sun, the resistance slows flowing space to a speed determined mostly by the mass of the Sun. At this point, space then begins once again to accelerate toward the Sun, reaching maximum speed at the surface of the Sun. If a planet like Jupiter gets in the way of this essentially Solar spaceflow, the SS of the planet serves as a resistance to the flow, and space must slow way down at the planet's SS so that it may accelerate into the planet. How much it slows down, and how fast it enters the surface of the planet is governed mainly by the mass of the planet. Utter nonsense. -- You know you've arrived when you've annoyed the cranks! Crank Hater proves his stupidity here! http://groups.google.gr/group/sci.ph...76a3a4b?&hl=en -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
#118
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Speed of Flowing Space into Mass (was - Einstein was an...)
In article ,
nightbat wrote: Hello Officer Painius it is always good to see your posts and devotion to science theoretical inquiry. The coffee boys being what they are silly disruptive clueless ones including the occasional new ones that invade from time to time should never deter you from your excellent deep pondering. Shame it is no congruence with reality huh! The important concept that Officer oc presents via Wolter's model is the space flow premise via unique outer Universe engine model to which at least it tries to help provide a causation for gravity and Universe internal dynamics. Wolter was perceptive in deducing a need for first cause motive action model to hopefully explain ongoing field effects of which at his time including to date as you well know were and are severely lacking. Utter nonsense Not until the nightbat and my long ago spotting of Officers oc's for Wolters net presentation has any other concept even come close to disclosing a more viable theoretical premise. The applied Wolter field formulation logic is brilliant for attempt to close gravitation loop problem and unification. You lot couldn't unify two decks of cards. The trouble however for deep field hopeful unification theorists and mathematicians is we have one observed physical Universe and the perimeters for acceptable model per observable co-Peer verification and confirmation are therefore quite restricting without going into hyper inter-dimensional, multiverse, outerverse (Wolter's), parallelverse, multi branes, multiple strings, imagined theoretical non evidence based extensions. Yep, shame that science calls you nutters. The nightbat discovery of field unification was as Dr. Einstein perceived beyond normal human grasp for no comparable model ever existed. BWAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAH No previous math's or examineable mathematical equations or proofs therefore could unity assist or applied extensions permit and enlightenly disclose what has never existed for examination. The verifiable proof however was in discovered field latent memory, lending to every physical energy/mass particle knowing its present relative position to where it should field original position place be or versus to original field pure uniform momentum. Oh god this is good. This is like surrealist comedy. Nightbat shreds up a science book and randomly arranges words to try and look profound. Whats your day job Frootbat? Or is living in your mums basement a 24/7 thing? -- You know you've arrived when you've annoyed the cranks! Crank Hater proves his stupidity here! http://groups.google.gr/group/sci.ph...76a3a4b?&hl=en -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
#119
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Speed of Flowing Space (was - Einstein was an...)
"Phineas T Puddleduck" wrote in message
news In article , "Painius" wrote: And you're certain of this because . . . (?) Because gravity propagates at c. And you're certain of this because . . . (?) happy days and... starry starry nights! -- The best things in life are here and now! Indelibly yours, Paine http://www.savethechildren.org/ http://www.painellsworth.net |
#120
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Speed of Flowing Space (was - Einstein was an...)
In article
, "Painius" wrote: Because gravity propagates at c. And you're certain of this because . . . (?) Sigh. How much physics do you saucerheads lack? Ok - why isn't it? -- You know you've arrived when you've annoyed the cranks! Crank Hater proves his stupidity here! http://groups.google.gr/group/sci.ph...76a3a4b?&hl=en -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
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