Mars Colonization

Hi,

Just some ideas I've grouped from reading around I'd like to have
people toss around about Mars Colonization...

To live on Mars, we'd need, ordered by necessity to survive, along
with a life expectancy being deprived of it:

Basic needs:

- Oxygen (minutes)
- Carbon dioxyde removal (few hours)
- Heat (minutes to hours)
- Drinking Water (few days)
- Food (few weeks)
- Radiation absorbtion (few months)

Quality of life needs:

- Personnal care cleaning substances (Soap, toothpaste, etc)
- Clothing
- Entertainment (games, DVDs, MP3s/CDs, books)

Long term presence and expansion:

- Pressurized volumes
- Furnishing (beds, matresses, etc)
- Births

What I have in mind would be an extreme one-way trip. But I'd sure be
volunteer to leave my mark in history books, and quite a few people
would be I think! And yes, I've been inspired a little by the concept
of Zubrin, althought I did not read his book.

First step would be to land a probe at the South Pole, and determine
water content in Martian polar ice. If it can be done remotely from an
orbiting probe well that's ok, but before committing to the plan I
have you'd need to be sure there was enough water ice on hand. I read
that THEMIS data pointed in that direction, but better be certain
before leaving the craddle.

Second step, which could be combined with the first one, would be to
launch an automated CH4-H20-O2 factory. The robotic lander would be
equiped to cut ice into blocks, and doing a spiral pattern from it's
point of landing outward, then back to it's landing point carving
10-20 centimeters layers. Power would be provided by a small nuclear
reactor, with capacity to be refuelled (this is important for later
steps).

The factory would take the dry/wet ice mix, and by warming, would
cause the CO2 to sublimate. The water part would be kept liquid,
filtered and electrolysed to seperate H2 and O2. A partial load of
hydrogen would then be reacted with the C02 and produce CH4.

I won't elaborate much more since this is almost word-for-word what I
heard about Zubrin's Case for Mars, but anyway, it's always good to
restate the facts and objectives. Once the supply production is
adequate, but not yet up to desirable levels, we launch the housing.

What I have in mind would be an inflatable habitat, which really would
be 3 inflatable structures imbricked like Russian dolls. Landing would
need to be relatively accurate to within a few hundred meters. This
has been accomplished in the past with Surveyor on the moon.

A rover would then seek out the Power-Hydrogen-Oxygen-Methane Lander
(PHOM). 3 lines would be rolled from the Habitat lander, one for each
gaseous products, each The Outer structure would be inflated first by
reacting methane and oxygen in a fuel cell, providing power for the
instruments, as well as pure water vapor and CO2.

A second enveloppe, inside the first one, would then be inflated
simultanously with O2. A gap of about 30 centimeters would seperate
the two inflated enveloppes. This gap, filled with water vapor, would
slowly form an ice shell, like an igloo. Gas would be inserted by the
center of the bags, the cold Martian air would cause condensation of
the water vapor, which would drip to the external sides by gravity.
Pressure would be monitored so that liquid water doesn't accumulate at
the base of the dome, and fuel cell use would be adjusted accordingly.

A tunnel would be pre-built into the bags for access to the innermost
enveloppe from the outside, leaving an opening 2 meters wide on a side
of the struture. The third enveloppe would only be used later...

Once the habitat would be set up, we would launch Human Payload #1,
which would consist of 4 men. No women at this stage. You'll see why
later... We'd need people with electrical, mechanical and material
expertise, along with with a medical and biology background. No need
for "one of each", one expert per field would do at this stage. This
launch would also include fish eggs, fertilized or not, and seeds

Transfer vehicule would have a sleeping compartmend surrounded by a 30
centimeters wide water enveloppe at launch, and hydrogen/oxygen fuel
cells would be used to ramp that up over time over the whole
pressurized volume. The fuel cells would be used to supplement solar
panels, since on board hydroponics (for CO2 and water recycling as
well as -some- food) would require some serious power.

I won't speculate on an appropriate solar/fuel cell power output
ratio, but failure of one should not mean doom-of-crew. This is
precious cargo, and there's no way anyone would sign up for a 2/3
failure ratio toward Mars!

So our friends land near the polar complex. First duty, outfitting of
the habitat. If, for whatever reasons, the gaseous lines could not be
connected to the PHOM facility, human intervention would resolve
whatever glitch occured. Remember, we know before heading for Mars
that essentials are being stocked so maybe terrain prevented the rover
from plugging the hoses on it's own. It would be a minor set back.

A power line would be connected from the Habitat to the PHOM facility,
enabling the pooling of electrical ressources, and gaseous lines would
be plugged between the Habitat and the Transfer Lander as well.
Baseline consumption would be supported by the PHOM nuclear reactor,
peak loads by the Habitat and Transfer Lander's fuel cells.

Depending on whether the solar panels were dumped before entry or
folded back, they could either be used as a supplemental power source,
or even removed and used to power land vehicules. Refuelling of the
Lander's methane-oxygen descent engine would begin, enabling return of
the crew if a Bad Thing occured.

After pooling of ressources, the Habitat would be outfitted primarly
as a biology/medical facility, with half of it's space fitted with
sleeping accomodations for up to 8 adults. A common airlock, launched
along with the Habitat, would be installed midway between the Lander
and the Habitat, with ice-covered pressurized tunnels linking them.
The gap between the 2nd and 3rd enveloppe would be filled with
polyurethane foam brought for insulation. The emulsifying gas could be
compressed CO2. The foam would act as an additionnal layer of
protection against the cold and the radiations.

A concave cavity would be carved in the immediate area of the complex,
to a depth of 4 meters at it's center, and a second Habitat-like
enveloppe would be installed at it's center, inflated and ice-shelled.
However, instead of oxygen, CO2 and water would be used for the
innermost enveloppe, like the outer one. Being insulated by the foam
layer, water would rise to the surface level.

The resulting bassin would be used as a fish hatchery and hydroponic
facility but the pure water would first be seeded with CO2 consumming
algae. LEDs emitting light of the appropriate wavelenghts would
provide illumination. Radiation dosing would be performed to evaluate
the living environnment.

Until the environnment is radiation-safe, comparable to flux
encountered in high-altitude regions on Earth (about 5 km),
non-reproducing teams would rotate every 2 years.

Once fish and plant production is up to sustainable levels for 12
adults, Human Heritage Expedition #1 would leave Earth, with 4 women
and a very precious cargo of frozen human ovuls and semen, from every
race. Each woman would be of a different blood type, and the donor's
blood type would also be recorded in the database.

The plan is to fertilize in-vitro, and check for DNA damage -before-
implanting the embryo. I do not know if this is possible, but maybe
cultivating a few stem cells while the embryo is in the first
trimester, and then deciding if an interruption could be required. By
bringing a diverse gene pool, it would be possible to avoid
congeniality issues later, as well as provide additionnal shielding
for the precious cargo enroute to Mars.

For obvious reasons, it would be preferable if the women crew were
biologists, pediatricians, psychologists, or similiar professions.
Indeed, due to radiation exposure, it would be best for the pregnant
women not to go outside, and access to certain areas could be
restricted, depending on radiation measurements (ie. The Transfer
Landers).

There should be no real timeline for pregnancies. Pionners are going
to be so busy, let's not add problems by having a baby boom
prematurely (no pun intended). But figuring 4 women having each 3
babies over a period of 6 years, every 2 years, the outpost would
reach a population of 8 adults and 12 children by Year 6. On year 5, a
third Transfer could be set up, this time bringing other living
samples, whatever would be required.

For example, the biologists would study ways to use Martian soil to
grow plants. Maybe after 5 years of research, they'd request for
specific strands of bacteria to tinker with, or algae, moss, whatever.

First male crew rotation, exposed to more radiation than the women,
would be after 4 years on the surface. Among equipement and supplies
needed from Earth, those relating to quality of life would be the most
needed. Electronics, Soap, etc.

Short term industry for such a colony might be the production of fuel
for Earth-Mars-Earth round trips. Since Mars as a lower gravity, would
it be cheaper to launch heavy loads of water from Mars toward the
Moon, via a complex Earth aerobraking manoeuver to put the cargo in
Moon's orbit? This would be quite a feat, yet it's possible! Some
rough calculations on my part gives me a total delta-v for a Martian
Surface to an Earth fly-by of about 8 km/s. The same amount on Earth
gets you up only to LEO.

There are lots of advantages, since Martian pressure is so low, you
can use vacuum-optimized engines. Imports would be nuclear fuel rods,
electronics, and other ressources. Water would be "sold" to the Moon
colonies, if they exist. I haven't calculated it yet, but I figure
that 10 metric tons of water sent from Mars to a Lunar base could cost
half the price of launching it from the Earth. Since the maximum mass
for a Mars-bound payload is not that different than for a Lunar-bound
one, I think it might be best to go back to the Moon, permanently,
with this scheme.

This way, if dreams were to be made from the Moon, they would be
fueled by Mars. Combining the relative abundance of water on Mars,
it's low gravity, with the proximity of the Moon and it's ideal
platform for heading out there...

So, here's my proposed timeline for Leaving the Cradle:

1)

Complete remote-sensing of Mars at high-resolution to determine
localisations of water concentrations and other useful ressources;

2)

Send an automated Polar Ice to Consumables factory;

3)

Establish human presence at the Pole to evaluate the feasability of
self-sustainment;

4)

Equip the settlement to be self-sustaining for water and food
requirements, Provide needed ressources to set up accomodations;

5)

Return water to Earth orbit with aerobraking on arrival(might be
automated and done at step 2);

6)

Use the returned water to help in establishing a human presence on the
Moon;

7)

Establish a space industry on the Moon, aimed at constructing
structures, engines and other metal parts needed to assemble other
EMEs (Earth-Mars-Earth) ferries. Such space transports would be
modular, with a Habitat module, shielded from radiation by Martian
water, a Power module (Solar, Nuclear, powersource-of-the-day), and a
Propulsion module, with a design such to accommodate relatively easy
upgrades or maintenance.

8)

Generate exchanges on the Moon-Earth-Mars triangle, with Earth
providing living ressources, human ressources, and high-tech
components, Mars fuel, and the Moon as a
processing/transformation/assembly industry. Enable both Mars and the
Moon to be as self-sufficient as possible in the fields of
consummables.

The whole plan runs in the dozens-billion range, but at least it has
the possibility of -some- Return on Investment, which 500-days to Mars
plans and month-long stays on the Moon project lacks by themselves.

I've snipped the lot as it is quite long and I wont refer to much of it...
however it is a great idea... but I think that it would be more viable to
shower the landscape with seeds of different kinds of plants and fungus etc
that we have here on Earth... how to do this would be perhaps to send about
100 (or maybe 1000) payloads in the form of pressurised bags that fill up
with air or whatever upon decent at lets say, 1km above the surface and
explode scattering the seedlings and spores onto the surface and into the
atmosphere...

Then we send down those polution machines and melt that ice away (assuming
there is some allthough no solid evidence has been found to suggest that
there is any _large_ amount of water in the form of a 'block of ice' or
similar) if anything it would be locked among the dust in minute droplets of
ice... but for arguments sake lets say that there is a large volume of water
which with global warming caused by the poluting machines, there would be
'weather' with wind and maybe even rain if evaporation and precipitation
levels are good enough... the seeds and spores will tell us when the planet
is ready for life... but it may be some 100 years until we go there... am I
quoting Zubrin?

As far as i can see, sending a probe to create a small environment for
sustaining human life is not the answer... Biodome failed... simply because
it wasn't big enough and well, we're humans so I think its best to get
the other life going there first... maybe even thow some fish in the seas
and some other animals... a real big noahs ark... either way, we would just
ruin it because we as humans are so out of touch with nature... let nature's
plants and animals make Mars habitable for us before we go there... let them
do the hard work...

Cheers


Niko Holm

Nice ideas, but Zubrin's analysis was significantly flawed. A better
way to colonise Mars would be to:

1. Start High Earth Orbit and (Lunar or NEO) operations

2. Use materials from the moon or the NEOs to construct high Earth
Orbit industry, including Satellite Solar Power (the principle revenue
generator).

3. Construct a rotovator or elevator to enable easy Earth to High
Earth Orbit access. Send first manned exploratory missions to Mars.

4. Start building Torus shaped colonies in High Earth orbit from lunar
or NEO material.

5. Using the Torus colonies as a base, start building Bernel Sphere
colonies

6. Upon completion of first Bernel Sphere, refit two Torus stations
for a voyage to Mars. Provide a crew of several thousand and several
hundred thousand tons of equipment.

7. Transfer the Torus station to Diemos. The crew will start to
colonise diemos and phobos, and explore the surface of Mars.

8. Construct a skyhook with Phobos at central point for easy access to
Mars surface and launch return to Earth. Use rotovators or linear
accelerators to send cargos from Earth to Phobos. Start greenhouse gas
production on Mars surface.

9. Built a Mars orbital infrastructure similar to Earth's (with Bernel
Sphere's then Cylinder colonies), based on the readily avauilable mass
of Phobos and Diemos. Increase population in Mars orbit from thousands
to what ever.

10. Construct orbital giant mirrors to increase warmth on Mars
surface. Colonists can choose between Mars surface and Mars orbit, or
even commute, given easy access via Phobos.






(Remy Villeneuve) wrote in message . com...
Hi,

Just some ideas I've grouped from reading around I'd like to have
people toss around about Mars Colonization...

To live on Mars, we'd need, ordered by necessity to survive, along
with a life expectancy being deprived of it:

Basic needs:

- Oxygen (minutes)
- Carbon dioxyde removal (few hours)
- Heat (minutes to hours)
- Drinking Water (few days)
- Food (few weeks)
- Radiation absorbtion (few months)

Quality of life needs:

- Personnal care cleaning substances (Soap, toothpaste, etc)
- Clothing
- Entertainment (games, DVDs, MP3s/CDs, books)

Long term presence and expansion:

- Pressurized volumes
- Furnishing (beds, matresses, etc)
- Births

What I have in mind would be an extreme one-way trip. But I'd sure be
volunteer to leave my mark in history books, and quite a few people
would be I think! And yes, I've been inspired a little by the concept
of Zubrin, althought I did not read his book.

First step would be to land a probe at the South Pole, and determine
water content in Martian polar ice. If it can be done remotely from an
orbiting probe well that's ok, but before committing to the plan I
have you'd need to be sure there was enough water ice on hand. I read
that THEMIS data pointed in that direction, but better be certain
before leaving the craddle.

Second step, which could be combined with the first one, would be to
launch an automated CH4-H20-O2 factory. The robotic lander would be
equiped to cut ice into blocks, and doing a spiral pattern from it's
point of landing outward, then back to it's landing point carving
10-20 centimeters layers. Power would be provided by a small nuclear
reactor, with capacity to be refuelled (this is important for later
steps).

The factory would take the dry/wet ice mix, and by warming, would
cause the CO2 to sublimate. The water part would be kept liquid,
filtered and electrolysed to seperate H2 and O2. A partial load of
hydrogen would then be reacted with the C02 and produce CH4.

I won't elaborate much more since this is almost word-for-word what I
heard about Zubrin's Case for Mars, but anyway, it's always good to
restate the facts and objectives. Once the supply production is
adequate, but not yet up to desirable levels, we launch the housing.

What I have in mind would be an inflatable habitat, which really would
be 3 inflatable structures imbricked like Russian dolls. Landing would
need to be relatively accurate to within a few hundred meters. This
has been accomplished in the past with Surveyor on the moon.

A rover would then seek out the Power-Hydrogen-Oxygen-Methane Lander
(PHOM). 3 lines would be rolled from the Habitat lander, one for each
gaseous products, each The Outer structure would be inflated first by
reacting methane and oxygen in a fuel cell, providing power for the
instruments, as well as pure water vapor and CO2.

A second enveloppe, inside the first one, would then be inflated
simultanously with O2. A gap of about 30 centimeters would seperate
the two inflated enveloppes. This gap, filled with water vapor, would
slowly form an ice shell, like an igloo. Gas would be inserted by the
center of the bags, the cold Martian air would cause condensation of
the water vapor, which would drip to the external sides by gravity.
Pressure would be monitored so that liquid water doesn't accumulate at
the base of the dome, and fuel cell use would be adjusted accordingly.

A tunnel would be pre-built into the bags for access to the innermost
enveloppe from the outside, leaving an opening 2 meters wide on a side
of the struture. The third enveloppe would only be used later...

Once the habitat would be set up, we would launch Human Payload #1,
which would consist of 4 men. No women at this stage. You'll see why
later... We'd need people with electrical, mechanical and material
expertise, along with with a medical and biology background. No need
for "one of each", one expert per field would do at this stage. This
launch would also include fish eggs, fertilized or not, and seeds

Transfer vehicule would have a sleeping compartmend surrounded by a 30
centimeters wide water enveloppe at launch, and hydrogen/oxygen fuel
cells would be used to ramp that up over time over the whole
pressurized volume. The fuel cells would be used to supplement solar
panels, since on board hydroponics (for CO2 and water recycling as
well as -some- food) would require some serious power.

I won't speculate on an appropriate solar/fuel cell power output
ratio, but failure of one should not mean doom-of-crew. This is
precious cargo, and there's no way anyone would sign up for a 2/3
failure ratio toward Mars!

So our friends land near the polar complex. First duty, outfitting of
the habitat. If, for whatever reasons, the gaseous lines could not be
connected to the PHOM facility, human intervention would resolve
whatever glitch occured. Remember, we know before heading for Mars
that essentials are being stocked so maybe terrain prevented the rover
from plugging the hoses on it's own. It would be a minor set back.

A power line would be connected from the Habitat to the PHOM facility,
enabling the pooling of electrical ressources, and gaseous lines would
be plugged between the Habitat and the Transfer Lander as well.
Baseline consumption would be supported by the PHOM nuclear reactor,
peak loads by the Habitat and Transfer Lander's fuel cells.

Depending on whether the solar panels were dumped before entry or
folded back, they could either be used as a supplemental power source,
or even removed and used to power land vehicules. Refuelling of the
Lander's methane-oxygen descent engine would begin, enabling return of
the crew if a Bad Thing occured.

After pooling of ressources, the Habitat would be outfitted primarly
as a biology/medical facility, with half of it's space fitted with
sleeping accomodations for up to 8 adults. A common airlock, launched
along with the Habitat, would be installed midway between the Lander
and the Habitat, with ice-covered pressurized tunnels linking them.
The gap between the 2nd and 3rd enveloppe would be filled with
polyurethane foam brought for insulation. The emulsifying gas could be
compressed CO2. The foam would act as an additionnal layer of
protection against the cold and the radiations.

A concave cavity would be carved in the immediate area of the complex,
to a depth of 4 meters at it's center, and a second Habitat-like
enveloppe would be installed at it's center, inflated and ice-shelled.
However, instead of oxygen, CO2 and water would be used for the
innermost enveloppe, like the outer one. Being insulated by the foam
layer, water would rise to the surface level.

The resulting bassin would be used as a fish hatchery and hydroponic
facility but the pure water would first be seeded with CO2 consumming
algae. LEDs emitting light of the appropriate wavelenghts would
provide illumination. Radiation dosing would be performed to evaluate
the living environnment.

Until the environnment is radiation-safe, comparable to flux
encountered in high-altitude regions on Earth (about 5 km),
non-reproducing teams would rotate every 2 years.

Once fish and plant production is up to sustainable levels for 12
adults, Human Heritage Expedition #1 would leave Earth, with 4 women
and a very precious cargo of frozen human ovuls and semen, from every
race. Each woman would be of a different blood type, and the donor's
blood type would also be recorded in the database.

The plan is to fertilize in-vitro, and check for DNA damage -before-
implanting the embryo. I do not know if this is possible, but maybe
cultivating a few stem cells while the embryo is in the first
trimester, and then deciding if an interruption could be required. By
bringing a diverse gene pool, it would be possible to avoid
congeniality issues later, as well as provide additionnal shielding
for the precious cargo enroute to Mars.

For obvious reasons, it would be preferable if the women crew were
biologists, pediatricians, psychologists, or similiar professions.
Indeed, due to radiation exposure, it would be best for the pregnant
women not to go outside, and access to certain areas could be
restricted, depending on radiation measurements (ie. The Transfer
Landers).

There should be no real timeline for pregnancies. Pionners are going
to be so busy, let's not add problems by having a baby boom
prematurely (no pun intended). But figuring 4 women having each 3
babies over a period of 6 years, every 2 years, the outpost would
reach a population of 8 adults and 12 children by Year 6. On year 5, a
third Transfer could be set up, this time bringing other living
samples, whatever would be required.

For example, the biologists would study ways to use Martian soil to
grow plants. Maybe after 5 years of research, they'd request for
specific strands of bacteria to tinker with, or algae, moss, whatever.

First male crew rotation, exposed to more radiation than the women,
would be after 4 years on the surface. Among equipement and supplies
needed from Earth, those relating to quality of life would be the most
needed. Electronics, Soap, etc.

Short term industry for such a colony might be the production of fuel
for Earth-Mars-Earth round trips. Since Mars as a lower gravity, would
it be cheaper to launch heavy loads of water from Mars toward the
Moon, via a complex Earth aerobraking manoeuver to put the cargo in
Moon's orbit? This would be quite a feat, yet it's possible! Some
rough calculations on my part gives me a total delta-v for a Martian
Surface to an Earth fly-by of about 8 km/s. The same amount on Earth
gets you up only to LEO.

There are lots of advantages, since Martian pressure is so low, you
can use vacuum-optimized engines. Imports would be nuclear fuel rods,
electronics, and other ressources. Water would be "sold" to the Moon
colonies, if they exist. I haven't calculated it yet, but I figure
that 10 metric tons of water sent from Mars to a Lunar base could cost
half the price of launching it from the Earth. Since the maximum mass
for a Mars-bound payload is not that different than for a Lunar-bound
one, I think it might be best to go back to the Moon, permanently,
with this scheme.

This way, if dreams were to be made from the Moon, they would be
fueled by Mars. Combining the relative abundance of water on Mars,
it's low gravity, with the proximity of the Moon and it's ideal
platform for heading out there...

So, here's my proposed timeline for Leaving the Cradle:

1)

Complete remote-sensing of Mars at high-resolution to determine
localisations of water concentrations and other useful ressources;

2)

Send an automated Polar Ice to Consumables factory;

3)

Establish human presence at the Pole to evaluate the feasability of
self-sustainment;

4)

Equip the settlement to be self-sustaining for water and food
requirements, Provide needed ressources to set up accomodations;

5)

Return water to Earth orbit with aerobraking on arrival(might be
automated and done at step 2);

6)

Use the returned water to help in establishing a human presence on the
Moon;

7)

Establish a space industry on the Moon, aimed at constructing
structures, engines and other metal parts needed to assemble other
EMEs (Earth-Mars-Earth) ferries. Such space transports would be
modular, with a Habitat module, shielded from radiation by Martian
water, a Power module (Solar, Nuclear, powersource-of-the-day), and a
Propulsion module, with a design such to accommodate relatively easy
upgrades or maintenance.

8)

Generate exchanges on the Moon-Earth-Mars triangle, with Earth
providing living ressources, human ressources, and high-tech
components, Mars fuel, and the Moon as a
processing/transformation/assembly industry. Enable both Mars and the
Moon to be as self-sufficient as possible in the fields of
consummables.

The whole plan runs in the dozens-billion range, but at least it has
the possibility of -some- Return on Investment, which 500-days to Mars
plans and month-long stays on the Moon project lacks by themselves.

(Alex Terrell) wrote in message . com...
Nice ideas, but Zubrin's analysis was significantly flawed. A better
way to colonise Mars would be to:

[snip 10 steps to Leaving the Cradle]



This would be the ultimate colonization of the Solar System, but we
have some issues to resolve, namely:

- high launch costs;
- absence or quasi-absence of water on the Moon, there are
contradictory data on the subject, but even if it's present at Lunar
Prospector's concentrations, it would be a pain in the neck to
exploit;

This means that to colonize the Moon, we'd need to send up hydrogen to
synthesize water with oxygen from the lunar regolith. And water is a
requirement for long term stays on the lunar surface, to drink, for
processing, for food.

So I envisionned that since Mars has a demonstrated level of water in
it's soil, the key would be to use Mars has a sustainable hydrogen
source for the Inner Solar system, to then put in place lunar-based
industries.

From the Earth surface, you need about 9500 m/s of delta-v to launch
into LEO, including drag and gravity loses. Then, you need an
additionnal 3900 m/s for a trans-lunar orbit followed by lunar orbit
injection. And you're not on the Moon yet... Add another 2000 m/s for
the descent and landing to the surface. Total is a delta-v of 15400
m/s From The Earth To The Moon (loved that serie!).

Now, if you look at Mars, you start out with the same 9500 m/s to get
to LEO, but then you add 5700 m/s to get to Mars orbit. As a bonus,
you can use the martian atmosphere to aerobrake... Total is 15200 m/s.

Now, since sending something to Mars and the Moon is similar, let's
consider the Return on Investment. If you send hydrogen to the Moon,
fine, but you won't be able to produce more hydrogen once it gets
there. However, if gou send a payload to Mars which could produce
hydrogen and all you needed to provide was tankage, you could bring
many more times the mass back to the Moon.

It might even be supposed that after a couple of years, water
containers would be built in-situ on Mars from iron, and water left to
freeze solid inside (with appropriate relief to prevent tank bursts).
Why water? Well, it's because of an handicap for long duration
transport of hydrogen. It tends to manage to get into space slowly but
surely.

Since we'd be using Mars-produced propellants (methane/oxygen and/or
water steam nuclear rocket), we'd need about 8000 m/s to get off Mars
and on a return trajectory to Earth. Once again, we use the atmosphere
to be captured, and the trajectory is adjusted to get into lunar orbit
with the least possible energy. It all has been more or less done
before...

One problem with Martian poles is that they're cold. You might be better
off at the equator. Eventually, you'll send a truck to the poles for water,
but that is a later stage process. Steps:
1. Land a bunch of machinery including digging equipment.
2. Land 4 astronauts with two inflatable habitats than can house 4
astronauts each (total of 8). Send enough food and water to last 4 years.
3. Bury one to provide radiation shielding.
4. Move into that one.
5. Bury the second one.
6. Begin work on making solar cells. You need electricity to do anything
you want to do.
7. Build an additional habitat out of local resources.
8. - Two years later -
8a. Send enough food and water to last 20 years.
8b. Send additional machinery and replacement parts.
8c. Send more astronauts.
8d. Send goats to be used as farm animals and guinea pigs.
9. - Later -
10. Build farms out of local resources. In order to make the farms fully
functional, you'll need water from Mars. Prior to this, they could live
with water from Earth and recycling.

Mike Rhino wrote:

One problem with Martian poles is that they're cold. You might be better
off at the equator. Eventually, you'll send a truck to the poles for water,
but that is a later stage process. Steps:
1. Land a bunch of machinery including digging equipment.
2. Land 4 astronauts with two inflatable habitats than can house 4
astronauts each (total of 8). Send enough food and water to last 4 years.
3. Bury one to provide radiation shielding.

One of the astronauts??? 8^O




--
Scott Lowther, Engineer
Remove the obvious (capitalized) anti-spam
gibberish from the reply-to e-mail address

Alex Terrell wrote:

5. Using the Torus colonies as a base, start building Bernel Sphere
colonies

Why Bernal spheres? How do you illuminate the crop lands on the
interior? As you go to higher latitudes on the sphere, "gravity"
decreases. The poles have no centrifugal force.

It seems to me cylindrical habitats are better.



--
Hop David
http://clowder.net/hop/index.html

"Remy Villeneuve" wrote in message
om...

A second enveloppe, inside the first one, would then be inflated
simultanously with O2. A gap of about 30 centimeters would seperate
the two inflated enveloppes. This gap, filled with water vapor, would
slowly form an ice shell, like an igloo.

For me, this was the New Idea - I hadn't seen it before. It sounds very
elegant, obvious-in-retrospect - very nice.

---
Dave Boll
http://www.daveboll.com/

Remy Villeneuve wrote:

- absence or quasi-absence of water on the Moon,

Alex had also mentioned NEOs. Some NEOs are thought to be former
main belt asteroids that have been thrown out by Jupiter. Others are
thought to be ex-Kuiper Belt Objects tossed out by Neptune.

Most are thought to be recent arrivals since they soon become craters
on Mars, Luna, Earth, Venus or Mercury.

If the NEOs are recent arrivals from colder places, they may still have
volatiles within.

NEOs don't have the steep gravity wells that make arriving or departing
from moons and planets so difficult.

Some have earth-like orbits and you can reach them with very little
delta vee.

I have some comic book pages illustrating my opinions (pages 8 to 11)
http://www.clowder.net/hop/railroad/page8.html

--
Hop David
http://clowder.net/hop/index.html

Niko Holm wrote:
I've snipped the lot as it is quite long and I wont refer to much of it...
however it is a great idea... but I think that it would be more viable to
shower the landscape with seeds of different kinds of plants and fungus etc
that we have here on Earth... how to do this would be perhaps to send about
100 (or maybe 1000) payloads in the form of pressurised bags that fill up
with air or whatever upon decent at lets say, 1km above the surface and
explode scattering the seedlings and spores onto the surface and into the
atmosphere...

all of the seeds would die very fast due to UV and surace chemistry.


Then we send down those polution machines and melt that ice away (assuming
there is some allthough no solid evidence has been found to suggest that

What pollution machines do you have in mind?



Cheers


Niko Holm



--
Sander

+++ Out of cheese error +++