The loss of AM/PM

The misguided believe that the upcoming decision to bury people deeper
in the right ascension cult will result in the loss of GMT through an
attempt to sever the ties between timekeeping and the great planetary
cycles however the view is so myopic in that it fails to see that they
have already lost the AM/PM designations which contain not only the
information on the daily cycle but the annual orbital one as well in
linking the calendar convenience close enough to the pure system of
motions.

Is there no sense of sadness that in our era there are people who
knowingly choose a flawed 1465 rotations in 1461 days which puts it in
direct conflict with AM/PM and what those two designations represents
in relating to both daily and orbital motions to the central Sun and
to each other.

Taking personal hostility is never an easy thing to do for an
astronomer as a person who engages in the pursuit at an interpretative
rather than a magnification level must take onboard what previous
interpreters had to say and why they took these avenues so it is
treating all people with respect and even those who developed
idiosyncratic views which latched themselves on to genuine
approaches.When any person here is asked to consider Ante Meridiem and
Post Meridiem in terms of the rotation of the Earth they should have
no difficulty and less so when they extend it to 4 years and
correlating that to 4 orbital circuits.

We all feel things and those who will feel uncomfortable with the
decision next week,something which will eventually filter into the
education system,may understand why any decision is postponed until
everyone gets a more substantive view of the matter.

The sweep of a hand across the face of a watch in time with the great
sweep of our planet's rotation occurs 1461 times in 4 circuits of the
Earth around the Sun and if readers don't think this is worth saving
as a fact then much more than astronomy will disintegrate.

On Jan 14, 1:52*am, oriel36 wrote:
they
have already lost the AM/PM *designations

I know that some foreign countries use the 24 hour clock instead, such
as France, but I fail to see why we need change.

In any case, this about losing a division of the day into two parts
made me think of this classic web site about the need to consider four
aspects to the day:

http://www.timecube.com/

....an unfortunately incoherent site by, no doubt, an unfortunately
irrational individual.

John Savard

The idea of Ante Meridiem and Post Meridiem are such lovely things
which signal the noon event and its rotational cause,the two AM/PM
designations speak of an era that is almost lost and judging by the
silence here in this forum,most would just as soon not notice that
they tie the 1461 days of the calendar system with the 1461 rotations
that enclose 4 orbital circuits of the Earth.

It is not GMT that they are losing next week,it is the ancient AM/PM
symbolism which is probably the only marker of an astronomer.

oriel36 wrote:
The idea of Ante Meridiem and Post Meridiem are such lovely things
which signal the noon event and its rotational cause,the two AM/PM
designations speak of an era that is almost lost and judging by the
silence here in this forum,most would just as soon not notice that
they tie the 1461 days of the calendar system with the 1461 rotations
that enclose 4 orbital circuits of the Earth.

It is not GMT that they are losing next week,it is the ancient AM/PM
symbolism which is probably the only marker of an astronomer.

You do obsess over the most ridiculous things. The 12 hour day is a useless
hangover from the past. You wont find the 12 hour clock used for timetables
anywhere in Europe. In my job we gave up the 12 hour clock because of the
number of mistakes it caused.
Find something better to do with your time.

On Jan 14, 6:40*pm, Mike Collins wrote:
oriel36 wrote:
The idea of Ante Meridiem and Post Meridiem are such lovely things
which signal the noon event and its rotational cause,the two AM/PM
designations speak of an era that is almost lost and judging by the
silence here in this forum,most would just as soon not notice that
they tie the 1461 days of the calendar system with the 1461 rotations
that enclose 4 orbital circuits of the Earth.

It is not GMT that they are losing next week,it is the ancient *AM/PM
symbolism *which is probably the only marker of an astronomer.

You do obsess over the most ridiculous things. The 12 hour day is a useless
hangover from the past.

The AM/PM designations represent astronomy at its most pure,they
represent a single daily event as a location turns to the Sun or in
olden times when the Sun crossed the meridian and the ancients were so
perceptive to ascertain that an extra AM/PM (day) is needed after
every 4th cycle of 365 days to keep the proportions of days in step
with the annual cycles which transfers to 1461 rotations in 4 orbital
circuits.Nobody can call themselves an astronomer if they don't know
this and apparently they don't.



You wont find the 12 hour clock used for timetables
anywhere in Europe. In my job we gave up the 12 hour clock because of the
number of mistakes it caused.

After thousands of years where the great timekeeping systems devised
by my astronomical ancestors and the modern watch which arose from
those principles,there is no authority to deal with this tragedy,the
empiricist shell of the IAU is nowhere to be seen as some obscure
organization is left to handle to formal detachment of timekeeping
from the great planetary cycles,something which began a few centuries
ago when they decided there were 1465 rotations in 1461 days to
satisfy modeling the celestial arena with watches.

It won't matter after next week,astronomy and its planetary links to
terrestrial effects will cease or exist in a convoluted state just as
the power of modern imaging is coming into its own.If the words of
Copernicus,Galileo,Kepler in astronomy,Huygens in timekeeping,Harrison
in invention,the explorers of the sea and land can't make a
difference,and in a decade I haven't seen any indication of
change,then our civilization is in severe difficulties.All nations
pride themselves in their astronomical heritage,every single one of
them,this is the era of the machine and mechanical thinking with the
crudest outlook of the celestial and terrestrial arenas the world has
ever known and the failed attempt next week to dissolve timekeeping
from planetary dynamics will be a statement of all that is gross in
human nature.

In short,and you will soon discover this,when you determine that the
movement of the hand of a clock no longer matches the day,welcome to
intellectual oblivion.

Quadibloc:

I know that some foreign countries use the 24 hour clock instead, such
as France, but I fail to see why we need change.

I'm not a "foreign" country (indeed, I don't really recognize the
existence of "foreign" countries or "foreign" people) and I don't argue
that anyone /needs/ to change to a 24-hour timekeeping system--most of
the world already has that. I have personally used the 24-hour clock
right here in the USA since I learned about it as a child (from my dad,
who had been a ship's navigator and then a ship's pilot, and who
ignited my interest in astronomy). I recall being amazed and delighted
to learn that 2:15 could be unambiguously referred to as 0215 or 1415
as appropriate.

If someone asked me to count to 24 (without reference to the number of
hours in a day in civil time) I would just count to 24; I wouldn't
count to 12 twice 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12,
1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12. That's just common sense to me, the way I
learned to count. When I consider time there is nothing special about
that 24--it could just as well be apples--and it again doesn't make
sense to me to count to 12 and then begin again. That's the answer that
I give when people ask me why I use the 24-hour clock. "Uh, because
there are 24 hours in a day?"

Further, it seems unnecessarily complex to have two systems of counting
hours. There are situations where the standard method--the 24-hour
method--must be used for safety and precision. I can think of no
situation in which counting to 12 twice is necessary for convenience or
safety or any other reason--except when I am talking to someone whom I
know will not understand what 1415 means in telling time. It would be
very risky for a spacecraft control team to talk about a craft
beginning its descent to Mars at 2:00 UTC without time-consuming
elaboration. One can think of lots of funny and not funny situations
where that kind of ambiguity could cause problems!

Note that the above is full of I's and me's; it doesn't contain the
word "you" because I am not telling anyone else how they should tell
time.

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

The designations AM/PM represent an astronomical event based on a
specific count of rotations and they do not change because men take a
holiday from astronomy.This topic is not going to digress into
something the simpleminded think important,it is not the demise of GMT
which is important,it is the assault on the planetary dynamics which
comprise the proportion of rotations for each orbital circuit and the
calendar convenience which maintains a correspondence between
rotations and orbital circuits in terms of AM/PM.

To the nearest rotation,there are 1461 rotations in 1461 days and that
is never going to change regardless of what these numbskulls decide
next week in the utterly hideous attempt to formalize a belief which
does not match the graceful sweep of the hands of a watch in 24 hours
with the rotation of the Earth and the effect of daylight turning to
darkness,always keeping in step with with dawn and twilight as
beautiful as the next rotation allows.

All that expensive magnification equipment and nobody is an
astronomer,if there were astronomers this catastrophe would not have
happened.

oriel36 wrote:
On Jan 14, 6:40 pm, Mike Collins wrote:
oriel36 wrote:
The idea of Ante Meridiem and Post Meridiem are such lovely things
which signal the noon event and its rotational cause,the two AM/PM
designations speak of an era that is almost lost and judging by the
silence here in this forum,most would just as soon not notice that
they tie the 1461 days of the calendar system with the 1461 rotations
that enclose 4 orbital circuits of the Earth.

It is not GMT that they are losing next week,it is the ancient AM/PM
symbolism which is probably the only marker of an astronomer.

You do obsess over the most ridiculous things. The 12 hour day is a useless
hangover from the past.

The AM/PM designations represent astronomy at its most pure,they
represent a single daily event as a location turns to the Sun or in
olden times when the Sun crossed the meridian and the ancients were so
perceptive to ascertain that an extra AM/PM (day) is needed after
every 4th cycle of 365 days to keep the proportions of days in step
with the annual cycles which transfers to 1461 rotations in 4 orbital
circuits.Nobody can call themselves an astronomer if they don't know
this and apparently they don't.



You wont find the 12 hour clock used for timetables
anywhere in Europe. In my job we gave up the 12 hour clock because of the
number of mistakes it caused.

After thousands of years where the great timekeeping systems devised
by my astronomical ancestors and the modern watch which arose from
those principles,there is no authority to deal with this tragedy,the
empiricist shell of the IAU is nowhere to be seen as some obscure
organization is left to handle to formal detachment of timekeeping
from the great planetary cycles,something which began a few centuries
ago when they decided there were 1465 rotations in 1461 days to
satisfy modeling the celestial arena with watches.

It won't matter after next week,astronomy and its planetary links to
terrestrial effects will cease or exist in a convoluted state just as
the power of modern imaging is coming into its own.If the words of
Copernicus,Galileo,Kepler in astronomy,Huygens in timekeeping,Harrison
in invention,the explorers of the sea and land can't make a
difference,and in a decade I haven't seen any indication of
change,then our civilization is in severe difficulties.All nations
pride themselves in their astronomical heritage,every single one of
them,this is the era of the machine and mechanical thinking with the
crudest outlook of the celestial and terrestrial arenas the world has
ever known and the failed attempt next week to dissolve timekeeping
from planetary dynamics will be a statement of all that is gross in
human nature.

In short,and you will soon discover this,when you determine that the
movement of the hand of a clock no longer matches the day,welcome to
intellectual oblivion.

It's to ensure that the hands of the clock match the day that we have leap
seconds.
We already need the "fiddle" of the equation of time to compensate for the
Earth's uneven orbit.
If you ever climb out of intellectual oblivion you will find it difficult
to get over the shame of your deliberate ignorance.

On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:43:41 -0500, Davoud wrote:

If someone asked me to count to 24 (without reference to the number of
hours in a day in civil time) I would just count to 24; I wouldn't
count to 12 twice 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12,
1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12. That's just common sense to me, the way I
learned to count.

Yes, but you are perhaps overlooking the fact that "common sense"
isn't very common anymore.

On Jan 14, 8:12*pm, Mike Collins wrote:
oriel36 wrote:
On Jan 14, 6:40 pm, Mike Collins wrote:
oriel36 wrote:
The idea of Ante Meridiem and Post Meridiem are such lovely things
which signal the noon event and its rotational cause,the two AM/PM
designations speak of an era that is almost lost and judging by the
silence here in this forum,most would just as soon not notice that
they tie the 1461 days of the calendar system with the 1461 rotations
that enclose 4 orbital circuits of the Earth.

It is not GMT that they are losing next week,it is the ancient *AM/PM
symbolism *which is probably the only marker of an astronomer.

You do obsess over the most ridiculous things. The 12 hour day is a useless
hangover from the past.

The AM/PM designations represent astronomy at its most pure,they
represent a single daily event as a location turns to the Sun or in
olden times when the Sun crossed the meridian and the ancients were so
perceptive to ascertain that an extra AM/PM (day) is needed after
every 4th cycle of 365 days to keep the proportions of days in step
with the annual cycles which transfers to 1461 rotations in 4 orbital
circuits.Nobody can call themselves an astronomer if they don't know
this and apparently they don't.

You wont find the 12 hour clock used for timetables
anywhere in Europe. In my job we gave up the 12 hour clock because of the
number of mistakes it caused.

After thousands of years where the great timekeeping systems devised
by my astronomical ancestors and the modern watch which arose from
those principles,there is no authority to deal with this tragedy,the
empiricist shell of the IAU is nowhere to be seen as some obscure
organization is left to handle to formal detachment of timekeeping
from the great planetary cycles,something which began a few centuries
ago when they decided there were 1465 rotations in 1461 days to
satisfy modeling the celestial arena with watches.

It won't matter after next week,astronomy and its planetary links to
terrestrial effects will cease or exist in a convoluted state just as
the power of modern imaging is coming into its own.If the words of
Copernicus,Galileo,Kepler in astronomy,Huygens in timekeeping,Harrison
in invention,the explorers of the sea and land can't make a
difference,and in a decade I haven't seen any indication of
change,then our civilization is in severe difficulties.All nations
pride themselves in their astronomical heritage,every single one of
them,this is the era of the machine and mechanical thinking with the
crudest outlook of the celestial and terrestrial arenas the world has
ever known and the failed attempt next week to dissolve timekeeping
from planetary dynamics will be a statement of all that is gross in
human nature.

In short,and you will soon discover this,when you determine that the
movement of the hand of a clock no longer matches the day,welcome to
intellectual oblivion.

It's to ensure that the hands of the clock match the day that we have leap
seconds.

The hands of a watch sweeping gracefully across its face and do so
twice 1461 times in 4 years in reflecting 1461 rotations of the Earth
to 4 orbital circuits,even the digital age hasn't stopped people from
carrying watches with that movement as they lead lives which follow
the great daily cycle of the Earth.Here I am among people who insist
on 1465 rotations in 1461 days even though their watches count 1461 AM/
PM signatures for that 4 year period and the silly mistake becomes so
obvious once people depart from the effects of daily rotation.

Leap corrections and especially Feb 29th are orbital adjustments and
even then there is a minor orbital drift of 11 minutes which is a tiny
fraction of the total orbital circuit of the Earth,there is no 'leap
second' adjustment based on daily rotation and that hideous indulgence
was stupid to begin with and good riddance to it but not for the
reasons given.

Astronomy at its most pure mocks what people today are doing today as
there is no way to detach the AM/PM designations which contain the
information for daily rotations enclosed in the orbital circuit of the
Earth or,in the calendar format,1461 days for 4 circuits.It is not
the accuracy of atomic clocks that are the issue,it is the gross
inaccuracy of having 1465 rotations in 1461 days and that is what they
will decide next week.

Astronomers indeed !,what has weak and cowardly intellects to do with
astronomy.