what if (on colliding galaxies)

"G=EMC^2 Glazier" wrote...
in message ...

Painius A very clean silver surface is the best reflector of sun light.
Mirrors melt iron. They give back a virtual image that easily fools our
brain. If we are using a reflector telescope we are seeing a virtual
universe. Mirror gives back exactly what is shown to it. It does not
reverse words from right to left,when we present the head line of a
news paper to it. We did that bert

Bert, i'm not getting that last part. If that is true,
then why do the letters on the front of an ambulance
show up like this when you look directly at them?...

E C N A L U B M A

Of course, it's for drivers in front of an ambulance to
be able to read that it's an ambulance in their rear-
view mirrors!

happy days and...
starry starry nights!

--
Indelibly yours,
Paine Ellsworth

P.S.: Thank *YOU* for reading!

P.P.S.: http://yummycake.secretsgolden.com

"BradGuth" wrote in message...
...
On Aug 19, 3:07 pm, oldcoot wrote:
On Aug 19, 2:04 pm, "Painius" wrote:

Here we
have a star with a blue shift heading for us at a
measurable radial velocity. At its present rate of
approach, Sirius would reach Earth in 339,000 yrs.
Since we do know that Sirius has a proper motion,
we also know that Sirius is not approaching Earth.
Sirius is headed off in some other direction that is
from 0 degrees to 90 degrees (non-inclusive) off
from the straight-line radial between us and that
star. Sirius will not collide with Earth if it stays on
its present path.

Uh, before you get pounced on, Sirius' blue hue is not from Doppler
shift but from its temperature. It radiates higher in the blue end of
the spectrum. So invoking Sirius' blue-ness doesn't really make a
valid analogy to the Andromeda issue, although you've effectively made
your point with it.

In addition to its nearly UV spectrum to start off with, and the 26x
visual illumination, the Sirius star/solar system is once again being
followed and closed in on by our solar system.

Sirius a/b used to be worth 7+ solar mass. 4+ solar mass is currently
missing in action. The unanswered question of the day; How many
planets and their moon got away from the red giant phase?

~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth

Oops, missed this one. To give some idea, though, most
scientists agree that at the red-giant phase of our Sun,
Mars will probably make it and shoot off quickly out of its
orbit, while Venus and Mercury definitely won't make it.
The expanding red surface will grow too quickly for those
two to do anything but vaporize.

Earth? The fate of our beloved homeland is upina air.
Some astronomers feel that Earth will make it out like
planet Mars, and others say, "No dice." And it seems to
be most likely that Earth will wind up like Venus and
Mercury... T o a s t e d !

happy days and...
starry starry nights!

--
Indelibly yours,
Paine Ellsworth

P.S.: Thank *YOU* for reading!

P.P.S.: http://yummycake.secretsgolden.com

On Aug 31, 7:17 am, oldcoot wrote:
All BBs expand before eventually turning around and becoming the next
SMBH.

The question is, which BB cycle are we in?

~ BG

WFIW, Gordon Wolter believed that **in present time**, we are slightly
past the 'Solstice' point of max expansion and into the beginning of
the Contraction phase.
*In present time* is the operative term, not in deep-
past lookback.

The onset of Contraction also marks the beginning of
*reversal of thermodynamic entropy* (in contrast to the open-ended
heat death notion).

Since our universe has supposedly created its physical radius of 50+
billion light years, perhaps in 50 or so billion years we might
actually start to discover how much such cosmic things have turned
around.
~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth

"Saul Levy" wrote in message...
...
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:33:41 -0400, Scott Miller
wrote:
Timberwoof wrote:
In article ,
"Painius" wrote:

Yes, TW, i'm afraid that's exactly what Scott, Saul and
pretty much the whole of astronomy are saying when
they (without really thinking it out) say that Andromeda
WILL collide with our Milky Way someday. It's taking
just too damn long for astronomers to sense a proper
motion for Andromeda, so they're sliding back into the
ancient paradigm of geocentrism. Simple as that!

Scott and Saul are not "pretty much the whole of astronomy". "Pretty
much the whole of astronomy" is NOT saying that it WILLL happen; they
say it might. There's a difference.

I take exception to this statement as well, as I have not said it will
happen either. But, unlock the nonscience folks here (Brad, Panius,
Bert), I did go and see what the most recent measurement attempts of the
proper motion of M31 is. Here are three articles of various detail on
one of the more recently published findings:

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/conten...;307/5714/1440

http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph?papernum=0506609

http://www.nrao.edu/pr/2005/m33motion/

Note for those attempting to catch me or others here in a lie - these
three articles are of the same attempt, worded differently, and are
indirect attempts at measuring the proper motion by measuring motions of
Triangulum.

Very interesting, Scott!

The second link says that a dark halo collision will occur in 5-10
billion years.

Saul Levy

Still haven't had time to adequately digest all three
links, but if you're correct, Saul... ". . . W I L L occur
in 5-10 billion years"? Riiiiight!

So much for the scientific method, eh?

happy days and...
starry starry nights!

--
Indelibly yours,
Paine Ellsworth

P.S.: Thank *YOU* for reading!

P.P.S.: http://yummycake.secretsgolden.com

On Aug 31, 7:56 am, "Painius" wrote:
"G=EMC^2 Glazier" wrote...

in ...



Painius A very clean silver surface is the best reflector of sun light.
Mirrors melt iron. They give back a virtual image that easily fools our
brain. If we are using a reflector telescope we are seeing a virtual
universe. Mirror gives back exactly what is shown to it. It does not
reverse words from right to left,when we present the head line of a
news paper to it. We did that bert

Bert, i'm not getting that last part. If that is true,
then why do the letters on the front of an ambulance
show up like this when you look directly at them?...

E C N A L U B M A

Of course, it's for drivers in front of an ambulance to
be able to read that it's an ambulance in their rear-
view mirrors!

Perhaps Bert thinks It's your left/tight brain playing those mind
games.
~ BG

On Aug 31, 8:29 am, "Painius" wrote:
"BradGuth" wrote in message...

...



On Aug 19, 3:07 pm, oldcoot wrote:
On Aug 19, 2:04 pm, "Painius" wrote:

Here we
have a star with a blue shift heading for us at a
measurable radial velocity. At its present rate of
approach, Sirius would reach Earth in 339,000 yrs.
Since we do know that Sirius has a proper motion,
we also know that Sirius is not approaching Earth.
Sirius is headed off in some other direction that is
from 0 degrees to 90 degrees (non-inclusive) off
from the straight-line radial between us and that
star. Sirius will not collide with Earth if it stays on
its present path.

Uh, before you get pounced on, Sirius' blue hue is not from Doppler
shift but from its temperature. It radiates higher in the blue end of
the spectrum. So invoking Sirius' blue-ness doesn't really make a
valid analogy to the Andromeda issue, although you've effectively made
your point with it.

In addition to its nearly UV spectrum to start off with, and the 26x
visual illumination, the Sirius star/solar system is once again being
followed and closed in on by our solar system.

Sirius a/b used to be worth 7+ solar mass. 4+ solar mass is currently
missing in action. The unanswered question of the day; How many
planets and their moon got away from the red giant phase?

~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth

Oops, missed this one. To give some idea, though, most
scientists agree that at the red-giant phase of our Sun,
Mars will probably make it and shoot off quickly out of its
orbit, while Venus and Mercury definitely won't make it.
The expanding red surface will grow too quickly for those
two to do anything but vaporize.

Earth? The fate of our beloved homeland is upina air.
Some astronomers feel that Earth will make it out like
planet Mars, and others say, "No dice." And it seems to
be most likely that Earth will wind up like Venus and
Mercury... T o a s t e d !

I tend to agree, because long before then our Earth will have come to
its self cultivated demise at the faith-based hands of the mostly rich
and powerful of arrogant, greedy and despicable humans, so there's
really nothing to worry about our getting T o a s t e d !

No point in relocating our Selene/moon out to Earth L1, as that would
only have extended our terrestrial survivability by a few hundred
million years, not to mention having provided unlimited clean energy
and making a rather terrific outpost/gateway (in addition to my 256e6
tonne LSE-CM/ISS) for effectively going just about anywhere.

Of course eventually moving our Selene/moon once again from Earth L1
to a little past Earth L2 would make a rather nifty gravity tug.
There are computer simulations that'll prove this out.
~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth

In article ,
"Painius" wrote:

"Saul Levy" wrote in message...
...
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:33:41 -0400, Scott Miller
wrote:

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/conten...;307/5714/1440

http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph?papernum=0506609

http://www.nrao.edu/pr/2005/m33motion/

Still haven't had time to adequately digest all three
links,

On other words, you haven't read them. The second one is an abstract an
the third one has more detail.

but if you're correct, Saul... ". . . W I L L occur
in 5-10 billion years"? Riiiiight!

So much for the scientific method, eh?

Alternatively, maybe you did read the articles. What was wrong with the
method used to make the measurements?

--
Timberwoof me at timberwoof dot com http://www.timberwoof.com
People who can't spell get kicked out of Hogwarts.

In article
,
"Painius" wrote:

"Timberwoof" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Painius" wrote:

Even so, no separate massive object is needed.

Of course it's needed. Don't you understand the 3body
problem?

Yes, I understand it. I don't think you do. What it means is that while
the orbits of two objects can be described with simple equations and
parameters, when three objects are involved, you can no longer use just
algebra to show the relationships. (Under special circumstances, you
can, for a limited period of time.)

There are over 30 galaxies in the Local Group
that might be orbiting the common barycenter. They
would all fly off in random directions if there were no
hypermassive object at the barycenter.

That is simply not true. First, they *aren't* orbiting a hypermassive
object. Any "hypermassive" object would *require* everything near it to
show certain accelerations, and those are just not seen. If all there
was, was just the Milky Way, Andromeda, and the double handful of
smaller galaxies, the system could be gravitationally bound and
perfectly happy.

Firstly, there are THREE (please get it thru that thick
skull of yours) T H R E E gigantic spiral galaxies of
similar size in the Local Group: 1) the Andromeda
galaxy, 2) the Triangulum galaxy, and 3) the Milky
Way galaxy. Most of the rest of the smaller galaxies
are satellites of these three spiral galaxies. However,
there are at least six or seven rogue galaxies that are
also gravitationally bound in the 10 million light year
wide Local Group of galaxies.

At the very least this is a classic 3-body problem. IE,
three bodies of similar mass, which is, oh cosmology
guru, very different from the Centauri situation where
P. Centauri is so much smaller than ACa or ACb and
much farther from the two alphas, as well. That
makes the Centauri group a simple 2-body problem.
Kryst! It's not even known for certain that Proxima
even orbits the two Alphas!

Secondly, there is as yet no way of telling anything
at all about your "certain accelerations". It could
very well be that they're "just not seen" because of
the tremendous distances involved.

"Barycenter" is just a term of convenience. Consider Alpha Centauri. It
is a binary star system; Proxima Centauri is believed to orbit Alpha
Centauri. When doing calculations of Proxima's orbit, it's simpler and
more convenient to consider Alpha as one mass; its location is taken to
be the barycenter of ACa and ACb. However, when you calculate the orbits
of ACa and ACb about each other, you treat them separately, and you do
*not* invent a third massive object for them to orbit around: the orbits
would just not work.

Your insistence on "barycenter" implying a real invisible massive object
throws an unnecessary and unobserved monkeywrench into all multiple-star
orbit calculations. It's just plain wrong. Drop it.

Eeeeeee-NOPE!

I'm still working on oc's lensing argument, but that's
the only monkeywrench worth its salt thus far. But
you can drop it if you like. No skin off my nose.

Even so, no unknown invisible hypermassive barycenter is needed for a
bunch of objects to be gravitationally bond to one another. *Especially*
because, as you claim, there's no way to tell anything about the
objects' accelerations: you have no basis for claiming the existence of
such a thing.

--
Timberwoof me at timberwoof dot com http://www.timberwoof.com
People who can't spell get kicked out of Hogwarts.

In article
,
"Painius" wrote:

"Timberwoof" wrote...
in message
...

. . .
If I am moving toward you, my velocity is ... toward you. As I'm
whipping about, there's a point where my velocity changes from toward
to, through zero, to away from you. That zero point is also the closest
point to you. It cannot be any other way.

I know how frustrating this can be for you to keep
trying to convince me, TW. But you have to allow
for the fact that what you describe is not the kind
of motion under consideration.

But to use your description, try the following...

If I am moving toward you, my velocity is... toward
you. As I'm whipping about, there's a point where
my velocity changes from more toward you to less
toward you. As it changes toward "less toward you",
it appears to change sign, but it doesn't. It cannot
be any other way...

http://www.physclips.unsw.edu.au/jw/circular.htm

Note in the above that as long as the orbit always
curves in one direction, the two tangential velocity
vectors will always yield a radial velocity vector that
points toward the center. It never changes sign.

If you're moving in a straight line that I'm not on, then a component of
your motion is toward me. At your closest approach, the component is
zero, and then becomes "away". But that's not the kind of motion we're
discussion. We're discussing circular motion.

If you're moving in a circular orbit around me, you're not moving toward
me, you're moving at a right angle to the line between us. You're
accelerating along that line, but your movement is tangential.

(We're discussing *circular* motion, right? As in moving on a circle. As
in that thing which is always the same distance from some point, and
that distance is known as the radius of the circle. Which is constant
because the size of the circle isn't changing. That kind of circle,
right?)

--
Timberwoof me at timberwoof dot com http://www.timberwoof.com
People who can't spell get kicked out of Hogwarts.

In article ,
"Painius" wrote:

It's easy to see how the bullet's upward and downward
movement is changing sign with respect to the Earth.
But how about with respect to Earth's gravitational field?

Whether or not you and i can ever agree upon the nature
of a gravitational field, whether it's push or pull, whether
or not it's generated by a mass or the result of a spatial
energy flowing into mass, the fact remains that a mass
possesses a definite gravitational field. And i submit to
you, Greg, that the bullet's movement, while obviously
changing sign with respect to the surface of the Earth,
never changes sign with respect to Earth's gravitational
field.

You're apparently failing to separate velocity and acceleration. The
projectile's acceleration is always toward the Earth. The projectile's
velocity depends on the initial angle of the shot, the initial velocity
of the projectile, and the time elapsed after that moment.

--
Timberwoof me at timberwoof dot com http://www.timberwoof.com
People who can't spell get kicked out of Hogwarts.