[Fwd: Top Secret Earth Station Message-Five Star-*****]

Is the speed of light increasing as space
gets less dense, or is it slowing down?

Does the speed of sound in air increase or decrease with diminishing
density/pressure? Pretty much a no brainer.

This sounds interesting.

Why is it interesting? Space is a 'void', remember?

"Bill Sheppard" wrote in message
...

Is the speed of light increasing as space
gets less dense, or is it slowing down?

Does the speed of sound in air increase or decrease with diminishing
density/pressure? Pretty much a no brainer.

The speed of sound is independent of pressure at constant temperature.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound

So are you saying there is NO dependence between the speed of light and
the density of space?

So are you saying there is NO
dependence between the speed of light
and the density of space?

AAArrrrrgh. And double AAAArrgh. In the analogy with the speed of
sound-- what happens to sound speed in air with diminishing density, as
at higher altitude or in a hypobaric chamber? Obviously sound speed
decreases.
Likewise, lightspeed decreases with diminishing spatial
pressure _as seen from an 'outside' referance frame_ . Yet from the
'inside' frame, locally, lightspeed is constant per SR and the Lorentz
invariance is never violated _locally_ . 'Local' in this context refers
to our neighborhood in the supercluster several billion LY across,
across which there is negligible density gradient. Locally, space can be
treated _as if_ it were a void, and relativity 'works' acceptably well.
But not at deep cosmological distances where the density gradient begins
severely steepening. Transpose yourself mentally 'outside' for a moment,
and you'll see the corresponding change in lightspeed across the density
gradient. From 'inside', we see the effect as excessive dimming of the
most ancient light.

However this is all malarky since in your worldview there is 'no medium'
and space is functionally a void. So there is no basis for discourse on
it.

On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 10:41:59 -0800
(Bill Sheppard) wrote:

So are you saying there is NO
dependence between the speed of light
and the density of space?

AAArrrrrgh. And double AAAArrgh. In the analogy with the speed of
sound-- what happens to sound speed in air with diminishing density,
as at higher altitude or in a hypobaric chamber? Obviously sound speed
decreases.
Likewise, lightspeed decreases with diminishing spatial
pressure _as seen from an 'outside' referance frame_ . Yet from the
'inside' frame, locally, lightspeed is constant per SR and the Lorentz
invariance is never violated _locally_ . 'Local' in this context
refers to our neighborhood in the supercluster several billion LY
across, across which there is negligible density gradient. Locally,
space can be treated _as if_ it were a void, and relativity 'works'
acceptably well. But not at deep cosmological distances where the
density gradient begins severely steepening. Transpose yourself
mentally 'outside' for a moment, and you'll see the corresponding
change in lightspeed across the density gradient. From 'inside', we
see the effect as excessive dimming of the most ancient light.

However this is all malarky since in your worldview there is 'no
medium' and space is functionally a void. So there is no basis for
discourse on it.


How about this then, two points in space separated by a distance, the
distance between these two points is seen to be increasing, yet no force
is pulling them apart and no force is pushing them apart. There is
nothing, repeat nothing between these two points except a void. How is
this movement explained.

Swap the two points for two distant galaxies or clusters of
galaxies with localisd forces ignored. Again with these two points
existing in nothing how can this movement be explained.

Merry Xmas everyone one.

"Bill Sheppard" wrote in message
...
So are you saying there is NO
dependence between the speed of light
and the density of space?

AAArrrrrgh. And double AAAArrgh. In the analogy with the speed of
sound-- what happens to sound speed in air with diminishing density,
as
at higher altitude or in a hypobaric chamber? Obviously sound speed
decreases.

Not obviously at all - any reduction in speed is due to temperature
related effects.

Did you read the link I gave?
2nd paragraph
"The humidity has very little effect on the speed of sound, while the
static sound pressure (air pressure) has none."

4th paragraph
"In fact, assuming a perfect gas the speed of sound depends on
temperature only, not on the pressure"

"Ray Vingnutte" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 10:41:59 -0800
(Bill Sheppard) wrote:



How about this then, two points in space separated by a distance, the
distance between these two points is seen to be increasing, yet no
force
is pulling them apart and no force is pushing them apart. There is
nothing, repeat nothing between these two points except a void. How is
this movement explained.

Maybe the two points started at different speeds?

Swap the two points for two distant galaxies or clusters of
galaxies with localisd forces ignored. Again with these two points
existing in nothing how can this movement be explained.


Similarly, because they started with relative motion.

Merry Xmas everyone one.

On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 20:31:10 -0000
"OG" wrote:


"Ray Vingnutte" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 10:41:59 -0800
(Bill Sheppard) wrote:



How about this then, two points in space separated by a distance,
the distance between these two points is seen to be increasing, yet
no
force
is pulling them apart and no force is pushing them apart. There is
nothing, repeat nothing between these two points except a void. How
is this movement explained.

Maybe the two points started at different speeds?


Nope sorry,


Swap the two points for two distant galaxies or clusters of
galaxies with localisd forces ignored. Again with these two points
existing in nothing how can this movement be explained.


Similarly, because they started with relative motion.

Nope sorry.


Merry Xmas everyone one.

"Ray Vingnutte" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 20:31:10 -0000
"OG" wrote:


How about this then, two points in space separated by a distance,
the distance between these two points is seen to be increasing,
yet
no
force
is pulling them apart and no force is pushing them apart. There is
nothing, repeat nothing between these two points except a void.
How
is this movement explained.

Maybe the two points started at different speeds?


Nope sorry,

In that case there is no increase in separation and nothing to explain

Merry Christmas

From Ray V:

Swap the two points for two distant
galaxies or clusters of galaxies with
localisd forces ignored. Again with these
two points existing in nothing how can
this movement be explained.

Well, the 'Something that is yet Nothing' corresponds to the missing
'dough' in the raisin bread analogy. To the Void-Spacers, there is no
dough, nay cannot be. To suggest that the dough is the Primary Reality
of existance with matter tagged on as a superfluous 'dustbunny' is
apostacy against the Faith. The Void-Space Paradigm(VSP) is a latter day
doctrine equivalent to the geocentrism of Ptolemy.. and its adherants
just as fiercely zealous as at the inquisition of Galileo.
The dough, the 'Something that is yet Nothing', by dint
of its expansion, exists in a state of _flow_ . Flowing space.. Flowing
outward, expanding from the initial eruption of the BB, carrying matter
along for the ride. If it's expanding, it hasta flow. Doh.
The 'dough', the spatial medium, is a perfect fluid or
'hyperfluid' as evidenced by our Newtonian laws of inertia and momentum
(i.e., objects in motion translate frictionlessly thru the medium,
resisting acceleration. But once accelerated (or decelerated), again
translate frictionlessly at the new velocity.)
The flowing-space model of gravity posits matter as a
spatial sink, or vent, with the medium flowing _into_ matter, into the
lowest-pressure zone at the core of every atomic nucleus (which also
happens to be the unification of gravity and the strong nuclear force).
This implies that the spatial medium exists in a
state of extreme hyperpressurization that exceeds the degeneracy
pressure of the atomic nucleus, as in a black hole collapse. And we are
Pressure Dwellers, having no sensory awareness of the extreme
hydrostatic pressure of the 'ocean' in which we dwell. And because it's
a perfect, frictionless fluid ('hyperfluid') we mis-interpret it as a
void.
Further evidence of its extreme hydrostatic pressure
and _sub-Planck energy density_ is the high value of light's propagation
speed.

Friend OG has stated that the FS model of gravity fails. But as far as i
can tell, it fails only to explain the 'roach motel' issue of "where
does the stuff go once ingested thru the atomic nucleus?" By the same
criterion, the BigBang model fails because it cannot explain "where does
the stuff come from?"
The FS model recognizes gravitation and the BB process
as a balanced dipole, sharing a common 'ground state'. We here on 'this
side' are privy to see only one side of the dipole. Whatever strange
nonlocal, non-plural realm exists on the 'other side', we are not yet
privy to. Yet by all evidence, logically it's one and the same "place".
Of course all this is total baloney to the Void-Space
mainstream. Yet they have no aversion to positing even stranger,
occultish-sounding stuff like 'curled up dimensions', dark
matter/energy, 'quintessence' etc. oc

On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 21:09:17 -0000
"OG" wrote:


"Ray Vingnutte" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 20:31:10 -0000
"OG" wrote:


How about this then, two points in space separated by a
distance, the distance between these two points is seen to be
increasing,
yet
no
force
is pulling them apart and no force is pushing them apart. There
is nothing, repeat nothing between these two points except a
void.
How
is this movement explained.

Maybe the two points started at different speeds?


Nope sorry,

In that case there is no increase in separation and nothing to explain

Yes there is, the separation is observed and can be measured, the motion
of the two points can be accounted for, except the separation, the only
explanation on offer is that the void, the nothing, is expanding thus
increasing the distance between the two points. This explanation smacks
of desperation. A void, a nothing expanding??, oh please.

I would still like to see an explanation of how this nothing is
expanding. Maybe the nothing is not expanding but that new nothing is
being created in the already existing nothing thus creating even more
nothing that goes on to create even more nothing and so on and so on ;-)





Merry Christmas