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#11
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Cygnus delivers
On Wednesday, October 2, 2013 5:14:33 AM UTC-7, Jeff Findley wrote:
Musk isn't trying to make Dragon and Falcon 9 "just as good" as other existing, and upcoming, launch vehicles and spacecraft. Musk is trying to leapfrog them both in terms of cost and in terms of capabilities. Yes, he's going to do stuff far beyond what's been done before. Make economic, reusable rockets. Establish a dot com billionaire retirement community on Mars. And to demonstrate he's well on his way, what do his fan boys cite? He delivered a satellite to orbit. He delivered supplies to the I.S.S. and brought them back. Newflash: that's been done before. |
#12
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Cygnus delivers
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#13
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Cygnus delivers
On Wednesday, October 2, 2013 10:55:38 PM UTC-7, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Newflash: that's been done before. Now look at what he's spent to do it and the timeframe he went from zero to a working rocket in, Look at the time and money it took Jobs and Wozniak to go from zero to a working computer. Earlier computers took many orders of magnitude more time and effort to make. Was the Apple orders of magnitude smarter than their predecessors? No. They benefited from the decades of research and development that went before. And, just like Jobs, Musk is standing on the shoulders of giants. People look at the spectacular success of personal computers and hope for the same in aerospace. There's a difference though. Transistors are amenable to miniaturization. Humans and their life support are not. And, due to Tsiolkovsky's rocket equation, neither are the Lox and kerosene it takes to deliver them to orbit. So no Moore's Law for human spaceflight. The rocket equation plus delta V to LEO means the Falcon upper stage will be more than 90% propellant and less than 10% dry mass. It's about as sturdy as a Coke Can (6% aluminum and 94% pop). Re-entering the atmosphere at 8 km/s subjects this fragile structure to extreme conditions. A quickly reusable and economic 2nd stage would be a huge leap in engineering and aerospace technology. Far more difficult than repeating what's already been done 100's of times. Musk's affordable tickets to Mars are hype. you pathetic little troll. You are one of the reasons this forum is nearly dead. |
#14
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#15
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Cygnus delivers
On Friday, October 4, 2013 12:41:17 PM UTC-7, Jeff Findley wrote:
Then it's a good thing that LOX and kerosene are so damn cheap! Ummm.... Cost of propellant wasn't my argument. I was arguing ships aren't amenable to miniaturization. I will try to put it more simply: Big life support, lots propellant: big rocket. Big rockets not cheap. (snip rest of the blazingly stupid straw man argument) The rocket equation plus delta V to LEO means the Falcon upper stage will be more than 90% propellant and less than 10% dry mass. It's about as sturdy as a Coke Can (6% aluminum and 94% pop). Re-entering the atmosphere at 8 km/s subjects this fragile structure to extreme conditions. A quickly reusable and economic 2nd stage would be a huge leap in engineering and aerospace technology. Far more difficult than repeating what's already been done 100's of times. Then it's a good thing they're starting with the *first* stage, For Musk's half million tickets to Mars he will need a reusable first and second stage. Not only reusable but quickly and economically reusable. Once again, Musk is a master of hype. you pathetic little troll. You are one of the reasons this forum is nearly dead. No, he's not. Fred is one of the few sane posters here. You're defending ad hominem. And you've thrown out a ridiculous straw man about the cost of fuel. SSH hasn't changed much. Short on math and physics. Short on space discussion. Long on straw men and colorful insults. Long on complaining about Duane Day, Rand Simberg and a large crowd of other folks that have made an exodus from this place. You, Fred, Om and Guth deserve each other. Bye |
#16
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#17
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Cygnus delivers
"Hop" wrote in message
... On Friday, October 4, 2013 12:41:17 PM UTC-7, Jeff Findley wrote: Then it's a good thing that LOX and kerosene are so damn cheap! Ummm.... Cost of propellant wasn't my argument. I was arguing ships aren't amenable to miniaturization. I will try to put it more simply: Big life support, lots propellant: big rocket. Big rockets not cheap. Ok, so what do YOU think drives cost? If anything, size is a plus here. Larger rockets tend to be cheaper/pound for payload costs. You're defending ad hominem. And you've thrown out a ridiculous straw man about the cost of fuel. SSH hasn't changed much. Short on math and physics. Short on space discussion. Long on straw men and colorful insults. Long on complaining about Duane Day, Rand Simberg and a large crowd of other folks that have made an exodus from this place. Says the man who posted no math in this argument. -- Greg D. Moore http://greenmountainsoftware.wordpress.com/ CEO QuiCR: Quick, Crowdsourced Responses. http://www.quicr.net |
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