Spherule petal bifurcation

March 9, 2004

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...4P2972M2M1.JPG

Almost all the in-situ spherules have these petal like bifurcations.
Feel free to attempt to explain them away as abiotic concretions.

Thomas Lee Elifritz
http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net

In article ,
Thomas Lee Elifritz wrote:
March 9, 2004

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...4P2972M2M1.JPG

Almost all the in-situ spherules have these petal like bifurcations.
Feel free to attempt to explain them away as abiotic concretions.

Thomas Lee Elifritz
http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net

They look exactly like solder balls which solidified with ineffective
flux during semiconductor manufacturing.

I'm not saying that this same process was responsible for what we are
seeing here, but I've seen this pattern on spherical objects before.
It is not, in itself, limited to organic or biotic processes.

--
Aaron Brezenski
Not speaking for my employer in any way.

March 9, 2004

Here you can clearly see the spherule and former outcrop fragment in the
act of decomposition, and the spherule itself appears to have either a
great deal of internal structure, or, is demonstrating unusual forms of
preferential decomposition. Clearly the material appears to be
dehydroxylating. What appears to be left over are the threaded grains.
Linear chains are clearly evident.

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opp...4P2952M2M1.JPG

Thomas Lee Elifritz
http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...4P2972M2M1.JPG

Almost all the in-situ spherules have these petal like bifurcations.
Feel free to attempt to explain them away as abiotic concretions.

Thomas Lee Elifritz
http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net

I'm not saying that this same process was responsible for what we are
seeing here, but I've seen this pattern on spherical objects before.
It is not, in itself, limited to organic or biotic processes.

I like your vertical?/horizontal? thinking explanation about the
similarities between the Opportunity concretions and soldier beads.
We need new ideas because we just can't point at the stem holes and
say "Look, there is life on Mars." All of us know how variable rocks
and nature can be.

Here are a few pictures to look at. They are looking less and less
biotic.

Wow. Look at these. They have little stems like ours do.
MOUNT SIGNAL CONCRETIONS
http://home.att.net/~amcimages/hyde.html

Look at the bumps on these guys. They look just like ours.
http://www.greatsouth.net/scstore/graphics/m180.jpg

Lake Superior Concretions -- ours are round like this, but I haven't
seen any welded together like these.
http://jackpinerockshop.com/images/concretions_425.JPG


This one shows how they are layered like ours.
Concretions in the Carmelo Formation, Point Lobos.
http://ic.ucsc.edu/~rocks/eart109/Pt...oncretions.jpg

These ones split the same way ours do.
http://nd.water.usgs.gov/lewisandcla...oncretions.jpg

These ones have the tennis ball markings like ours.
http://ijolite.geology.uiuc.edu/Natl...ncretions2.jpg

best,
Michael

"Thomas Lee Elifritz" wrote in message
...
March 9, 2004

Here you can clearly see the spherule and former outcrop fragment in the
act of decomposition, and the spherule itself appears to have either a
great deal of internal structure, or, is demonstrating unusual forms of
preferential decomposition. Clearly the material appears to be
dehydroxylating. What appears to be left over are the threaded grains.
Linear chains are clearly evident.


http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opp...4P2952M2M1.JPG


Nice pic!

Page 90 at this link, I believe, explains just what is going on in that pic.
http://64.78.63.75/samples/04BIORupp...oology7ch5.pdf


I think what might be useful at this point is to try to make
a prediction of the blueberry bowl measurement to come.
But I can't seem to find a good guide as to what their
composition would be when alive, let alone after sitting
out so long.

Also I wonder how long a gemmule would last in theses
conditions? Certainly not millions of years, but far
less I would suppose.

I did find a site that breaks down a living sponge by
mineral content. But that seems only a rough guide
to what a gemmule consists of.
http://www.scilet.com/Papers/csb/csb111/CSBAraujo.pdf


The big craters, especially the Opportunity crater, should make
clear what they've stumbled into.


Jonathan

s






Thomas Lee Elifritz
http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...4P2972M2M1.JPG

Almost all the in-situ spherules have these petal like bifurcations.
Feel free to attempt to explain them away as abiotic concretions.

Thomas Lee Elifritz
http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net

Clearly the material appears to be dehydroxylating.

Maybe that is clear to you, not to me. Doesn't dehydroxylation
usually involve an enzyme.

the spherule itself appears to have either a great deal of
internal structure, or, is demonstrating unusual forms of
preferential decomposition.

Actually, in the picture you are pointing to
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opp...4P2952M2M1.JPG
has no internal structure to speak of. It looks like your basic
mineral concretion spalding away.

What appears to be left over are the threaded grains.
Linear chains are clearly evident.

Looks to me like some basalt dust blew in from a local volcano.

Regardless of what NASA decides, I would like to understand these for
myself and I have not yet committed myself to a biological explanation
-- there are too many of the spherules to make me happy having them
as fossils. See
http://typhoon.wcp.muohio.edu/boardm...7Pisoliths.jpg
for a worrisome intrusion on my current vision of spherule formation
as potatoes/peanuts with stems growing underground.

Nice chatting,

Michael

"jonathan" wrote in message
...

"Thomas Lee Elifritz" wrote in message
...
March 9, 2004

Here you can clearly see the spherule and former outcrop fragment in the
act of decomposition, and the spherule itself appears to have either a
great deal of internal structure, or, is demonstrating unusual forms of
preferential decomposition. Clearly the material appears to be
dehydroxylating. What appears to be left over are the threaded grains.
Linear chains are clearly evident.



http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opp...-03-09/1M13183
1948EFF0574P2952M2M1.JPG


Nice pic!

Please note, you are known by the company you keep.


Page 90 at this link, I believe, explains just what is going on in that
pic.
http://64.78.63.75/samples/04BIORupp...oology7ch5.pdf


I think what might be useful at this point is to try to make
a prediction of the blueberry bowl measurement to come.

Why don't you?

But I can't seem to find a good guide as to what their
composition would be when alive, let alone after sitting
out so long.

Why not let your mathematics be your guide?
Take a stab at it anyway. Not having sufficient information
to come to a rational conclusion has never stopped you
before.

Also I wonder how long a gemmule would last in theses
conditions? Certainly not millions of years, but far
less I would suppose.

So you are implying that these spherules (and thus
these sites) are only thousands of years old?
That would mean that Mars was able to support
fresh water sponges less than a million years ago
at Meridiani? You have also stressed that your
scenario requires large standing bodies of water.
Fresh water too, if you insist on fresh water
sponges. There must be several places you can
point to that have standing seas of fresh water
on top of salt brines. Or at least one. Can't you?
And by the way, where did these fresh water seas
all go in less than a million years?

I did find a site that breaks down a living sponge by
mineral content. But that seems only a rough guide
to what a gemmule consists of.
http://www.scilet.com/Papers/csb/csb111/CSBAraujo.pdf

Please note that the paper you refer to above is about
a marine sponge from the eastern Atlantic. A salt water
sponge in a salt water environment. Yet, the other
reference above is for a fresh water sponge. You were
earlier trying to convince us that it was quite specifically a
fresh water sponge that was found in a salt brine at
Meridiani. Remember?

March 10, 2004

MarsFossils wrote:

Clearly the material appears to be dehydroxylating.

Maybe that is clear to you, not to me. Doesn't dehydroxylation
usually involve an enzyme.

Maybe, on Earth, but this is Mars, and long term UV certainly can make and break chemical bonds. It doesn't appear to me you
are doing much critical thinking at all, or any critical examination of the evidence, merely posting pictures on your website
and claiming they may or may not be fossils. Your only claim thus far is thus 'first to market'.

the spherule itself appears to have either a great deal of
internal structure, or, is demonstrating unusual forms of
preferential decomposition.

Actually, in the picture you are pointing to
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opp...4P2952M2M1.JPG
has no internal structure to speak of. It looks like your basic
mineral concretion spalding away.

That is because that is exactly what it is, a mineral concretion. The question is what, if any, is the role of microbiology in
it's formation, fossilization, diagenesis and decomposition. Again you are not critically addressing the evidence, merely
falling again into the crackpot skeptic dismissal routine.

What appears to be left over are the threaded grains.
Linear chains are clearly evident.

Looks to me like some basalt dust blew in from a local volcano.

There are no local volcanoes, and this site looks nothing like any other site we have seen close up on Mars. We can clearly
see the granular and crystalline polymorphic grains eroding *OUT* of previously relatively homogenous areas of the
concretions. Again, you have nothing much to offer the discussion except links to that pathetic website of yours.

Regardless of what NASA decides, I would like to understand these for
myself and I have not yet committed myself to a biological explanation

Indeed, you have not even attempted a detailed mineralogical explanation.

-- there are too many of the spherules to make me happy having them
as fossils. See
http://typhoon.wcp.muohio.edu/boardm...7Pisoliths.jpg
for a worrisome intrusion on my current vision of spherule formation
as potatoes/peanuts with stems growing underground.

Nice pictures, no content.

Nice chatting,

You aren't chatting, you are dismissing, skeptic.

Try some scientific methods just once.

Thomas Lee Elifritz
http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net

March 10, 2004

Chosp wrote:

You were
earlier trying to convince us that it was quite specifically a
fresh water sponge that was found in a salt brine at
Meridiani. Remember?

No, he originally tried to convince us that the spherules 'look' like fresh
water sponge gemmules.

It's an 'analogy'. Look it up if you don't know what it means.

Thomas Lee Elifritz
http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net

"Thomas Lee Elifritz" wrote in message
...
March 10, 2004

Chosp wrote:

You were
earlier trying to convince us that it was quite specifically a
fresh water sponge that was found in a salt brine at
Meridiani. Remember?

No, he originally tried to convince us that the spherules 'look' like
fresh
water sponge gemmules.

It's an 'analogy'. Look it up if you don't know what it means.

Thomas Lee Elifritz
http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net

Can you present the "Mathematical Analogy" from your work demonstrating the
interchangeability of these two species?
Ralph