Fraud in Gagarin's Flight Record Claims -- FAI Doesn't Care

Jim Oberg wrote:
"Volker Hetzer" wrote
And any punishment served out now wouldn't make one bit of difference
to the running or future of this country. People know that **** happened
in
their past. People know that this is to be prevented in the future.
Therefore the only purpose would be revenge.

So you are opposed to hunting down surviving Nazi
war criminals, too? I hadn't seen you take that position,
so I'll just ask you that: when after WW2 should the world
have called off prosecution of Nazi killers? 1946? 1955?
1995? Today?
When there was/is consensus to stop by the people who suffered. The jews
want them punished and I won't deny them that. They did suffer cruelly.
However, with Erich Honecker for instance, he did't kill millions of
people in an industrialized way and if the consensus of the people is
to let it rest, I'm not arguing either. He was broken enough.
Btw, south africa chose a similar way. Some particular outrageus crimes
were punished but there was no pea counting.
Call it forgiveness in the name of getting on.

Volker

Jim Oberg wrote:
"Volker Hetzer" wrote
So, let's pose an example in your country. Imagine one federal state,
like texas, infiltrated by people dreaming of an islamist state,
with no effective government anymore, people grow opium and sell it abroad
and parents in neighbouring (infidel) states have to bring their children
to school in convois for fear of kidnappings, another source of income
for texas people. This going on for years.
Now imagine, your central government sends in the national guard or
whatever
to restore law and order at which point the texans put up a new flag,
compain
about religious persecution, call for independence and - the rest of the
world
calls the US the oppressor for not letting them turn one of their states
into
a crime paradise.
Over to you. How would you handle this?

I'd rein in my imagination and face reality.
Translation: You don't know any better too.


Chechnya was brutally conquered by force,
Which part of your country wasn't?

pacified by genocide, massacred and deported
and economically impoverished by blockade,
How are the indians?

yet somehow missed out on the post-soviet
independence of non-Russian people in the
region
You did notice that russia doesn't have a problem
with independence per se then, right? Just with
crime.

because of some arbitrary European-drawn
line down the Caucasus Mountains.
We've all seen on the balkan how it looks like
when people don't miss out on that.

When faced
with growing nationalism, Russians reacted as
Russians do best: kill, kill, kill, and kill some more.
The problem isn't nationalism, it's islamism.
They only hoisted the flag after the russians disagreed
about the drugs and the kidnappings.

And tens of thousands of people (including thousands
of Russian kids who never asked to be there either)
die.
Okay. They botched it, I agree. However, apart from
the body armor and some more high tech gizmos I don't see
much difference in how you handle the same situation in
iraq. Still no bright ideas?

I mean, they *could* just go away and mine the borders but
how often do you want to give away land to some drug
trafficking warlords and islam fanatics? And where would it
end? The words "greater chechnya" have been said already
and the neighbouring countries are nervous.

Btw, they did have elections there last november.

Now the Russians (and their apologists) whine
about how Chechens have become radicalized.

In Texas, or any other territory under US jurisdiction
(e.g., Puerto Rico), we now determine issues of sovereignty
by holding elections. What an un-Russian idea.
Right. I can just imagine some bit of your country declaring
independence and refusing to pay tax to some foreign government
anymore. Has hapened a few times. Typically it didn't take long
for the police to show up and tell the guy what they thought about
his independence.

"Volker Hetzer" wrote in message
...
How are the indians?

Fat and sassy, thanks to the casinos.

In Texas, or any other territory under US jurisdiction
(e.g., Puerto Rico), we now determine issues of sovereignty
by holding elections. What an un-Russian idea.
Right. I can just imagine some bit of your country declaring
independence and refusing to pay tax to some foreign government
anymore. Has hapened a few times.

When?

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 00:07:53 +0200, Volker Hetzer
wrote:

Chechnya was brutally conquered by force,
Which part of your country wasn't?

.... You know, considering how well we did, wouldn't it be in your best
interests to shut your mouth before we decide to pick *your* home as
our next target?

PLONKSKI

....Bot chernii, suk sinii.

OM
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On 25 Apr 2006 13:27:00 -0700, "Rusty"
wrote:

Unfortunately we don't give Hero Of America medals for that.

....The actual medal would be called "Mother Of The United States".
Some welfare mothers in the ghettos would probably qualify :-P

OM
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] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[

So it really IS a matter of revenge, and not justice?
In US law, the wishes of victims do not weigh heavily
in the decisions to prosecute serious crimes.




"Volker Hetzer" wrote in message
...

When there was/is consensus to stop by the people who suffered. The jews
want them punished and I won't deny them that. They did suffer cruelly.
However, with Erich Honecker for instance, he did't kill millions of
people in an industrialized way and if the consensus of the people is
to let it rest, I'm not arguing either. He was broken enough.
Btw, south africa chose a similar way. Some particular outrageus crimes
were punished but there was no pea counting.
Call it forgiveness in the name of getting on.

Volker

"Jim Oberg" wrote in message
...
So it really IS a matter of revenge, and not justice?
In US law, the wishes of victims do not weigh heavily
in the decisions to prosecute serious crimes.

Well, the US didn't have such a dramatic change of government as, say, South
Africa, or Rwanda, both of which have used acknowledgement and
reconcilement instead of punishment fairly widely and successfully. The
closest American examples were Lincoln's various proposals to the South
during the war (especially early).

I'm in awe of the way South Africa handle the truth and
reconciliation panels, and still ran trials where needed.
What an example for the world -- I'm grateful.
Russia just doesn't seem interested in even that
less painful path.




"Ami Silberman" wrote in message
...

"Jim Oberg" wrote in message
...
So it really IS a matter of revenge, and not justice?
In US law, the wishes of victims do not weigh heavily
in the decisions to prosecute serious crimes.

Well, the US didn't have such a dramatic change of government as, say,
South Africa, or Rwanda, both of which have used acknowledgement and
reconcilement instead of punishment fairly widely and successfully. The
closest American examples were Lincoln's various proposals to the South
during the war (especially early).

In article ,
OM wrote:
while my opinion of the FAI is pretty well known - they're a bunch of
chicken**** pricks, especially when it comes to naming craters and
mountains on the Moon - iin this case they're 100% correct.

Do keep the TLAs (Three Letter Abbreviations) straight, OM. :-) Lunar
features are named by the IAU, which is unrelated to the FAI. (Note also
that the nationality most represented on the IAU's naming committees is,
surprise surprise, the US. Last time I looked, anyway.)

Gagarin made the flight, and all anti-commie rhetoric aside, the
record stands.

I'm actually inclined to agree with the position Jim expressed later in
the discussion: leave the record on the books, yes, but it would be good
to add a footnote along the lines of "It's now known that Gagarin didn't
quite comply with the rules, and some supporting information in the claim
was also wrong, but we're nevertheless letting it stand because of its
historical significance."
--
spsystems.net is temporarily off the air; | Henry Spencer
mail to henry at zoo.utoronto.ca instead. |

Sokhraneet Nash Mir wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Jim Oberg wrote:
wrote
And as far as how you can or cannot know who is old and who is not, it
is a common practice among civilized poeple not to call others "boy"
just per chance they may be old men. But you are too bigoted and
uncilivized to understand.

I did have a few verbal comments in response to this,
but I leave it to your imagination.


Thanks for wasting everybody's time with yet another information-free
post.


Should we thank you as well?


First, thank yourself for your own post, moron.