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Evidence for the existence of God
People differ in what they consider sufficient evidence for the existence
of God. Some see the beauties of nature as sufficient while those at the other extreme demand scientifically-rigorous evidence. In between the extremes are those who accept personal experiences which cannot be transferred to others except anecdotally. Here are two cases where two witnesses testify of Jesus. Start with a 4-year-old girl whose mother is an atheist and whose father is virtually in agreement with his wife. The girl, who has had no religious indoctrination, begins having visions of heaven, which she tries to capture in drawings and paintings. She continues to have these visions and improves in her artistry, moving from water colors to acrylics to oil. At age six or seven, she claims Jesus asks her to paint His portrait, so she tries to find an acceptable model. After a long search she has found no one. She prays and says that she can't do what she has been asked. The very next day there's a knock at the door. Standing there is a man and the girl says, "It's him!" He says he's a carpenter and only has three days to pose. The girl sketches him in different poses and when he's gone, she paints a stunning portrait in oil in 40 working hours: https://art-soulworks.com/pages/prin...peace-painting Her parents were quite bemused by their daughter's activities. They are now Christians. The girl (Akiane) is now 22 and says she doesn't belong to any denomination. But the story doesn't end there. A boy who is almost four has a burst appendix and had a near-death experience during the operation. After his recovery, he claimed he sat on Jesus' lap, saw his great grandfather and saw his sister who didn't have a name. His mother had had a miscarriage between the birth of his older living sister and him (which the boy didn't know about). When asked what Jesus looked like, the boy said he had a brown beard, brown hair and greenish-bluish eyes. When shown some conventional pictures of Jesus, the boy said that they didn't look like Him. Later, when he saw Akiane's painting, he said, "That's what He looks like." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_Is_for_Real So we have two witnesses who didn't know each other and who saw Jesus and agree on what he looks like. We also have Exhibit A, the portrait of Jesus. Interestingly, in an interview, the boy (Colton) said he wouldn't become a minister because there are a lot of denominations that all teach different things. Gary |
#2
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Evidence for the existence of God
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 08:29:00 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote: So we have two witnesses who didn't know each other and who saw Jesus and agree on what he looks like. We also have Exhibit A, the portrait of Jesus. Interestingly, in an interview, the boy (Colton) said he wouldn't become a minister because there are a lot of denominations that all teach different things. I don't see anything here that even remotely rises to the level of objective, or even reasonable evidence for the existence of a god. A girl can paint? A boy thinks he went to heaven? Two people have a similar idea what Jesus looked like? A few anecdotal tales are not going to convince anybody. (And I'll note that there's nothing new here... this kind of silliness is what apologists have been offering for years, all neatly shot down as inadequate to demonstrate anything.) Come on. You said you had real evidence. Something new. Let's have it. |
#3
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Evidence for the existence of God
On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 10:10:05 AM UTC-6, Chris L Peterson wrote:
I don't see anything here that even remotely rises to the level of objective, or even reasonable evidence for the existence of a god. A girl can paint? A boy thinks he went to heaven? Two people have a similar idea what Jesus looked like? If it happens that a number of similar anecdotes come up - and in the majority of those anecdotes, Jesus looks the same, and His appearance is not simply modeled on a commonly-known portrait - that would indeed be objective evidence, even if not ironclad. On the other hand, if there are many similar anecdotes, and in two of them, Jesus looks the same, yes, that isn't evidence. John Savard |
#4
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Evidence for the existence of God
On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 10:29:02 AM UTC-5, Gary Harnagel wrote:
People differ in what they consider sufficient evidence for the existence of God. Some see the beauties of nature as sufficient while those at the other extreme demand scientifically-rigorous evidence. In between the extremes are those who accept personal experiences which cannot be transferred to others except anecdotally. Here are two cases where two witnesses testify of Jesus. Start with a 4-year-old girl whose mother is an atheist and whose father is virtually in agreement with his wife. The girl, who has had no religious indoctrination, begins having visions of heaven, which she tries to capture in drawings and paintings. She continues to have these visions and improves in her artistry, moving from water colors to acrylics to oil. At age six or seven, she claims Jesus asks her to paint His portrait, so she tries to find an acceptable model. After a long search she has found no one. She prays and says that she can't do what she has been asked. The very next day there's a knock at the door. Standing there is a man and the girl says, "It's him!" He says he's a carpenter and only has three days to pose. The girl sketches him in different poses and when he's gone, she paints a stunning portrait in oil in 40 working hours: https://art-soulworks.com/pages/prin...peace-painting Her parents were quite bemused by their daughter's activities. They are now Christians. The girl (Akiane) is now 22 and says she doesn't belong to any denomination. But the story doesn't end there. A boy who is almost four has a burst appendix and had a near-death experience during the operation. After his recovery, he claimed he sat on Jesus' lap, saw his great grandfather and saw his sister who didn't have a name. His mother had had a miscarriage between the birth of his older living sister and him (which the boy didn't know about). When asked what Jesus looked like, the boy said he had a brown beard, brown hair and greenish-bluish eyes. When shown some conventional pictures of Jesus, the boy said that they didn't look like Him. Later, when he saw Akiane's painting, he said, "That's what He looks like." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_Is_for_Real So we have two witnesses who didn't know each other and who saw Jesus and agree on what he looks like. We also have Exhibit A, the portrait of Jesus. Interestingly, in an interview, the boy (Colton) said he wouldn't become a minister because there are a lot of denominations that all teach different things. Gary That's a stunning portrait for an 8 year old to have painted. very talented youngster indeed. For me, images of Jesus have no meaning whatsoever. However, his words are priceless gifts. Razzy |
#5
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Evidence for the existence of God
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 09:40:43 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
wrote: On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 10:10:05 AM UTC-6, Chris L Peterson wrote: I don't see anything here that even remotely rises to the level of objective, or even reasonable evidence for the existence of a god. A girl can paint? A boy thinks he went to heaven? Two people have a similar idea what Jesus looked like? If it happens that a number of similar anecdotes come up - and in the majority of those anecdotes, Jesus looks the same, and His appearance is not simply modeled on a commonly-known portrait - that would indeed be objective evidence, even if not ironclad. On the other hand, if there are many similar anecdotes, and in two of them, Jesus looks the same, yes, that isn't evidence. Of course in this case we have only one painting, which looks very much like a conventional representation of Jesus, and everything else is people making claims without evidence. This is hearsay of the lowest quality at this point. |
#6
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Evidence for the existence of God
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 09:46:04 -0700 (PDT), Razzmatazz
wrote: For me, images of Jesus have no meaning whatsoever. However, his words are priceless gifts. Indeed. Priceless. If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage. Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? All things are possible to him that believeth. |
#7
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Evidence for the existence of God
On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 12:28:33 PM UTC-5, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 09:46:04 -0700 (PDT), Razzmatazz wrote: For me, images of Jesus have no meaning whatsoever. However, his words are priceless gifts. Indeed. Priceless. If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage. Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? All things are possible to him that believeth. Thanks for your insight. I have read several books about the historical Jesus who walked the shores of Galilee. Seems that there were many with that name who lived at different times and called themselves healers. Of course there are many seeming contradictions, stories that were gathered up and became part of the legend. I'm more of a fan of the Sermon on the Mount. The rest of the stories I consider plagiarized, made up or simply the result of fading memories as told by story tellers decades and centuries later. |
#8
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Evidence for the existence of God
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 11:03:49 -0700 (PDT), Razzmatazz
wrote: Thanks for your insight. I have read several books about the historical Jesus who walked the shores of Galilee. Seems that there were many with that name who lived at different times and called themselves healers. Of course there are many seeming contradictions, stories that were gathered up and became part of the legend. I'm more of a fan of the Sermon on the Mount. The rest of the stories I consider plagiarized, made up or simply the result of fading memories as told by story tellers decades and centuries later. In reality, there is good stuff and bad. As I'd expect from anybody presenting moral ideals. My real objection isn't with the material itself, but with those who elevate it to "holy". Anything that can reasonably be attributed to a deity- a vengeful deity that is willing to punish simple disbelief with eternal pain- cannot be something which is so open to interpretation, is so ambiguous, is so dependent upon cherry picking. Once we elevate the opinions of anybody above criticism, we're in trouble. |
#9
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Evidence for the existence of God
On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 10:10:05 AM UTC-6, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 08:29:00 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel wrote: So we have two witnesses who didn't know each other and who saw Jesus and agree on what he looks like. We also have Exhibit A, the portrait of Jesus. Interestingly, in an interview, the boy (Colton) said he wouldn't become a minister because there are a lot of denominations that all teach different things. I don't see anything here that even remotely rises to the level of objective, or even reasonable evidence for the existence of a god. Apparently, you weren't paying much attention to what I wrote at the beginning: "In between the extremes are those who accept personal experiences which cannot be transferred to others except anecdotally. Here are two cases where two witnesses testify of Jesus." Of course personal experiences aren't "objective, scientific evidence." A girl can paint? A boy thinks he went to heaven? Two people have a similar idea what Jesus looked like? A few anecdotal tales are not going to convince anybody. You are dead wrong there because these events have convinced millions. (And I'll note that there's nothing new here... this kind of silliness is what apologists have been offering for years, all neatly shot down as inadequate to demonstrate anything.) I'm afraid I've exposed you to evidence for which you will be held accountable one day. Come on. You said you had real evidence. Something new. Let's have it. You've had it, in more ways than one, I'm afraid. |
#10
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Evidence for the existence of God
On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 10:40:45 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 10:10:05 AM UTC-6, Chris L Peterson wrote: I don't see anything here that even remotely rises to the level of objective, or even reasonable evidence for the existence of a god. A girl can paint? A boy thinks he went to heaven? Two people have a similar idea what Jesus looked like? If it happens that a number of similar anecdotes come up - and in the majority of those anecdotes, Jesus looks the same, and His appearance is not simply modeled on a commonly-known portrait - that would indeed be objective evidence, even if not ironclad. On the other hand, if there are many similar anecdotes, and in two of them, Jesus looks the same, yes, that isn't evidence. John Savard Indeed, and it's way too late to ask all the people who have claimed to have had near-death experiences. If they say, "Yes, he looked like that," one couldn't tell the honest ones from the fakers. What would be convincing is if more children who had not been exposed to that portrait have NDEs would then see it and say that that was what he looked like, that would perhaps meet your criterion of "objective" evidence. |
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