Mars program is shut down

Le 01/03/12 14:32, Jeff Findley a écrit :
In articleyMudnWDUlpKBS9PSnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@giganews. com,
says...

"jacob wrote in message
...

The administration has decided to pursue the dismantling of NASA. After
shutting down the human space exploration program, now is the time to
shut down planetary science.

It starts with the study of Mars.


Exploring Mars is about finding life, not building colonies.

That's your opinion, but there are many people who feel that if we're
never going to send people there, then what's the point of it all? Why
spend billions "exploring" another planet with robots if we're never
going to set foot on it ourselves?



That's your opinion. Following your opinion there is no point in exploring:

o The sun. We are surely never going to build a home sweet home
in a body with 6 000 Celsius at the surface :-)
o Mercury, Venus: Same problems. Too hot.
o Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune: Too cold.

Following your opinion we should limit ourselves to exploring
our own planet, the ONLY planet in the universe where we can live
without any previous investment in terra-forming and exploration...

I don't think we should be planning future missions to Mars
until we see what the MSL finds. If it finds life, well, that's
kinda like landing on the Moon, after the first time no one
cares anymore. If it doesn't find life than a next generation
of rovers should be sent. But why the hell do they need
$500 million a year for that?

Why the hell would we spend that kind of money if there wasn't any
desire to send people there?


See above.

[snip]

It should be clear what happened. The whole Bush 'Vision' was
the civilian cover story used while transferring the shuttle replacement
to the military black budget. The fact Bush hardly mentioned the Moon
after the initial policy announcement made it clear even he didn't
support going through with any Moon landings, and if he didn't
why would anyone think the next administration would?

Only in your deluded mind. DoD has their own space budget, thank you
very much.


You are welcome. But that budget is not going to finance ANY kind
of exploration, just the only thing "DoD" knows: weapons.


X-37b isn't a replacement for the space shuttle. It's capabilities are
quite different in order to support quite different missions. The
shuttle's extremely limited stay time in LEO made it little better than
a launch vehicle for DoD. X-37b is a reusable *spacecraft* with in
orbit endurance that the shuttle could never match.


Of course. X37b is a WEAPON, not a spacecraft. It is designed to
KILL (the only thing weapons can do).

In article , says...

Le 01/03/12 14:32, Jeff Findley a écrit :
In articleyMudnWDUlpKBS9PSnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@giganews. com,
says...

"jacob wrote in message
...

The administration has decided to pursue the dismantling of NASA. After
shutting down the human space exploration program, now is the time to
shut down planetary science.

It starts with the study of Mars.


Exploring Mars is about finding life, not building colonies.

That's your opinion, but there are many people who feel that if we're
never going to send people there, then what's the point of it all? Why
spend billions "exploring" another planet with robots if we're never
going to set foot on it ourselves?



That's your opinion. Following your opinion there is no point in exploring:

o The sun. We are surely never going to build a home sweet home
in a body with 6 000 Celsius at the surface :-)

It's pretty much impossible to explore the sun. The best we can do is
observer from a distance. Observing the sun *is* important because it's
activity directly impacts Earth. For example, unmanned spacecraft are
used to monitor the sun in order to predict "solar storms", which can
disrupt communications and long distance power distribution.

o Mercury, Venus: Same problems. Too hot.
o Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune: Too cold.

Venus is of interest because it's similar in size and location (relative
to the sun) to Earth. Most of the others have only been observed (fly-
bys, orbiting probes, and etc.), not directly, physically, explored with
some sort of lander based on the planet's surface.

I'd like to note that the most explored planet is Mars. We've landed
more probes on Mars than any other planet in the solar system. I'd like
to note that it's also the easiest planet in the solar system to
colonize. The relationship between actual exploration of Mars and it's
potential for colonization is not an accident.

Following your opinion we should limit ourselves to exploring
our own planet, the ONLY planet in the universe where we can live
without any previous investment in terra-forming and exploration...

No, Mars is the next (big) logical step for manned space exploration.
Putting people on Mars would ramp up the science output by orders of
magnitude.

X-37b isn't a replacement for the space shuttle. It's capabilities
are
quite different in order to support quite different missions. The
shuttle's extremely limited stay time in LEO made it little better than
a launch vehicle for DoD. X-37b is a reusable *spacecraft* with in
orbit endurance that the shuttle could never match.


Of course. X37b is a WEAPON, not a spacecraft. It is designed to
KILL (the only thing weapons can do).

The ability for X-37b to "kill" is an unsupported assertion. It's
possible, but not bloody likely.

Jeff
--
" Ares 1 is a prime example of the fact that NASA just can't get it
up anymore... and when they can, it doesn't stay up long. "
- tinker

" Ì would like to emphasize that. According to several reports
and seeing the history of multi-capabilities planes they
have ALWAYS failed. The F35 should land/start vertically but also
be able to start/stop in a runway. It should be adapted to so
many conflicting specifications that its cost have soared by more than
50-60% and still there is no end to its development costs.


Lessons like the F-111A/B seem to always be quickly forgotten. Some learn
from the mistakes of the past, Others treat them as suggestions. It's - this
wasn't possible then - but we know so much more now - WE CAN make it
happen.

Exploring Mars is about finding life, not building colonies.

It really has to do with things that inspire the tax payer who's footing the
bill. Man on Mars is the only way we'll really study and hopefully use the
planet, and man exploring an alien world can be made interesting and
exciting, The spirit of Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo can lice again. I don't
sense this type of spirit for the ISS or many unmanned activities - It's
sometimes hard to find folks who even kown some of these programs exist - or
for that matter care!

I see the approach here as - cancel Mars as a manned space flight goal. So
now we can drop the unmanned (Pre-cursor) missions.

Put the money into the James Webb Telescope, which is a higher scientific
goal.

When Mars programs are dead - realize the average person has no idea about
what the Webb Telescope is about - so you kill it without much fuss - It's
done it's job - it killed the Mars programs.

Next comes the one manned mission - go explore a mathematical point in
space. The stand up comedians should have a field day with this one as it
approaches cancellation.

How do yoou eat an elephant? One part at a time. How do you kill NASA - one
program at a time.

"Brad Guth" wrote in message
...
On Feb 29, 5:48 pm, "Jonathan" wrote:

~Blame the lack of world-wide democracy.
Once we have that, then we can dream!

s

This world can not possibly afford the kind of democracy you speak of.

Freedom-diversity-randomness-uncertainty is the ideal initial condition for
democracy-evolution-order-beauty, to spontaneously emerge.

If the rest of the world catches up to America in prosperity, everyone
would benefit, even us. The math is clear, just as a ball spun inside
a bowl will always come to rest at the bottom, the most probable
final state of any sufficiently complex system is to self-organize
and hill-climb. Sooner or later. Why deny the inevitable?

Nature always wins in the end, so the sooner the better.

Sometimes the significance of history is hard to see as it happens.
For instance, just yesterday, North Korea signaled it's about
to roll over once and for all. The walls are falling so fast, or
Nature is spreading so fast, it's hard to keep up.

Remember, self-organization or complexity is a natural result
of systems displaying highly ...parallel connectivity.
All things Internet is creating just that kind of connectivity.

Great evolutionary leaps happen suddenly, and the effects
are usually overwhelming. Like intelligence opening up
a vast scale of new possibilities, and almost overnight the
world is transformed. Non-linear change acts like a
shock wave cascading throughout, going viral.

We're living in the /very middle/ of such an evolutionary
advance. The sudden expansion into the "adjacent possible"
is something that only happens once an ecosystem.

And the adjacent door opens into a new possibility space
a hundred times more magnificent than what came before.
A thousand times.

And that doesn't merely mean today's pipe-dreams can
become reality, but even things we can't possibly imagine
today.


"Of Paradise' existence
All we know
Is the uncertain certainty
But its vicinity infer,
By its Bisecting
Messenger"

By E Dickinson.



"The Genius of the Tinkerer"
Wall Street Journal

"The scientist Stuart Kauffman has a suggestive name
for the set of all those first-order combinations:
"the adjacent possible."

"The adjacent possible is a kind of shadow future, hovering
on the edges of the present state of things, a map of all
the ways in which the present can reinvent itself."

"The strange and beautiful truth about the adjacent possible
is that its boundaries grow as you explore them. Each new
combination opens up the possibility of other new combinations.
Think of it as a house that magically expands with each door
you open. Once you open one of those doors and stroll into
that room, three new doors appear, each leading to a
brand-new room that you couldn't have reached from your
original starting point. Keep opening new doors and eventually
you'll have built a palace."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...101860838.html


s



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On Mar 1, 5:49*pm, "Jonathan" wrote:
"Brad Guth" wrote in message

...
On Feb 29, 5:48 pm, "Jonathan" wrote:

~Blame the lack of world-wide democracy.
Once we have that, then we can dream!

s
This world can not possibly afford the kind of democracy you speak of.

Freedom-diversity-randomness-uncertainty is the ideal initial condition for
democracy-evolution-order-beauty, to spontaneously emerge.

If the rest of the world catches up to America in prosperity, everyone
would benefit, even us. The math is clear, just as a ball spun inside
a bowl will always come to rest at the bottom, the most probable
final state of any sufficiently complex system is to self-organize
and hill-climb. Sooner or later. Why deny the inevitable?

Nature always wins in the end, so the sooner the better.

Sometimes the significance of history is hard to see as it happens.
For instance, just yesterday, North Korea signaled it's about
to roll over once and for all. The walls are falling so fast, or
Nature is spreading so fast, *it's hard to keep up.

Remember, self-organization or complexity is a natural result
of systems displaying highly ...parallel connectivity.
All things Internet is creating just that kind of connectivity.

Great evolutionary leaps happen suddenly, and the effects
are usually overwhelming. Like intelligence opening up
a vast scale of new possibilities, and almost overnight the
world is transformed. Non-linear change acts like a
shock wave cascading throughout, going viral.

We're living in the /very middle/ of such an evolutionary
advance. The sudden expansion into the "adjacent possible"
is something that only happens once an ecosystem.

And the adjacent door opens into a new possibility space
a hundred times more magnificent than what came before.
A thousand times.

And that doesn't merely mean today's pipe-dreams can
become reality, but even things we can't possibly imagine
today.

"Of Paradise' existence
All we know
Is the uncertain certainty
But its vicinity infer,
By its Bisecting
Messenger"

By E Dickinson.

"The Genius of the Tinkerer"
*Wall Street Journal

"The scientist Stuart Kauffman has a suggestive name
for the set of all those first-order combinations:
"the adjacent possible."

"The adjacent possible is a kind of shadow future, hovering
on the edges of the present state of things, a map of all
the ways in which the present can reinvent itself."

"The strange and beautiful truth about the adjacent possible
is that its boundaries grow as you explore them. Each new
combination opens up the possibility of other new combinations.
Think of it as a house that magically expands with each door
you open. *Once you open one of those doors and stroll into
that room, three new doors appear, each leading to a
brand-new room that you couldn't have reached from your
original starting point. Keep opening *new doors and eventually
you'll have built a palace."http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870398930457550373010186...

s

Meanwhile, back on earth and under the thumbs of the rich and powerful
that maintain authority over anyone we care to elect or appoint, the
reality is that the ruse of democracy is at best dysfunctional.

Btw; what does Mars have that Venus doesn't have at least ten fold
more to offer?

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On Feb 29, 11:12*pm, jacob navia wrote:
Le 01/03/12 03:48, Brad Guth a écrit :



Good riddance to our dysfunctional NASA, DARPA, their JPL and similar
public-funded buddies that can't even breakeven, much less show any
profit.

So what?

Since when JPL is a "for profit" organization?

JPL has explored almost all the planets of the solar system. Its probes
have been incredibly successful and represents the best that american
science and egineering can produce. Yes, they didn't find any oil in
Jupiter or gold in Titan. They "didn't break even"'.

You can't see any value in things that do not produce profits for
the 1%. If they produce knowledge for the 99% they are useless,
according to you.

Other than loads of jobless LEO obtained eyecandy and games,
there's still not a single off-world investment exploiting our moon or
any other planet that's paying off.

Yes, they do not "pay off", as basic science doesn't "pay off". But
also, as you may have noticed, GPS is a by product of the space
era. Satellite cable TV also. And satellites are "off world" by
definition.

What a moron you are Guth. Just go on complaining about the Jews
since this post was written by a Jew.

Jacob

You and other public-funded types just don't get it.

No corporation or private business on Earth would last a day past
their first loan repayment due date if they operated anything like our
public-funded DARPA or NASA.

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the US IS BROKE All of nasa wil be on the chopping block. all manned
space to see its budget zeroed is a ISS accident.

we need to face facts the US is now a second rate debtor nation

On Mar 2, 8:57*am, Fred J. McCall wrote:
bob haller wrote:
the US IS BROKE All of nasa wil be on the chopping block. all manned
space to see its budget zeroed is a ISS accident.

we need to face facts the US is now a second rate debtor nation

This is a stupid remark even for you, Bobbert.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._credit_rating

Go look up what an AA and AAA credit rating means.

Hint:

AAA: An obligor rated 'AAA' has extremely strong capacity to meet its
financial commitments. 'AAA' is the highest issuer credit rating
assigned by Standard & Poor's.
AA: An obligor rated 'AA' has very strong capacity to meet its
financial commitments. It differs from the highest-rated obligors only
to a small degree.

The ratings run like this:

AAA
AA *--- US is about here or higher
A
BBB
BB *--- 'Junk' starts here
B
CCC
CC
C
CI *--- Broke starts about here
R
SD *--- Greece
D * --- Really broke is here

Hope that clears things up for you.

--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
*truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *-- Thomas Jefferson

our national debt now equals our GDP and at least one agency
downgraded our credit rating during the debt cieling budget mess

On Mar 2, 4:57*am, bob haller wrote:
the US IS BROKE All of nasa wil be on the chopping block. all manned
space to see its budget zeroed is a ISS accident.

we need to face facts the US is now a second rate debtor nation

And since all of our gold collateral has been long ago taken by the
likes of China and the Rothschilds, means that the blood and guts of
the next ten generations get to pay even more than they can possibly
afford to spare. Our public-funded Fred thinks it's all quite funny.

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