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the drive to explore



 
 
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  #11  
Old May 21st 05, 02:12 AM
lclough
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wrote:

Otherwise, why would embittered clowns like yourself have to spend so
many hours trying to refute the obvious?





Historically, there are only three engines that drive
exploration. The prospect of material wealth (gold, oil, whale
blubber, a quarter section of prairie) is far and away the most
popular. Another very common motivation in the past is
nationalism -- we must get to the Moon, Antarctica, the New
World, before those awful Communists, Norwegians, or Portugese
do it. Religious reasons come in third, and supply a handy
cloak to cover the naked ambition of the first two motives. We
want to convert the heathens to Christianity, or teach the
natives about Islam.

For these three goals, people and governments are willing to
spend money. Any other motives -- science, the love of the
unknown, and so on -- may be bruited merrily about, but they
don't open wallets.

Are there any solid examples in history of major exploration
driven by a goal other than the big three? The only one I can
think of is, possibly, Alexander the Great. Who had enough
money, after conquering Persia, and enough empire, to keep
anybody happy, and the Greeks were not really evangelizers -- so
what drove him to try and conquer India? But then Alexander did
not really have to consult with others.

Brenda


--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/

Recent short fiction: PARADOX, Autumn 2003
http://home.nyc.rr.com/paradoxmag//index.html

Upcoming short fiction in FIRST HEROES (TOR, May '04)
http://members.aol.com/wenamun/firstheroes.html

  #12  
Old May 21st 05, 02:31 AM
Sydney Webb
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lal_truckee wrote:

[deletia]

This thread is being cross-posted to:

rec.arts.sf.science,
rec.arts.sf.written,
soc.history.what-if
and sci.space.policy

If you are thinking of responding to this thread, kindly check headers
and only post to group(s) you consider appropriate.

[Headers set]

- Syd

--
"Yeah, yeah. Free will and all that. It's not clear whether that applies
to the real world or if Nixon is always beaten to death in South
America."
- James Nicoll philosophises
  #15  
Old May 21st 05, 04:26 AM
Jim Davis
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Logan Kearsley wrote:

Give me a method of contributing to the heavy lifting, and I'll
do it myself.


chuckle


*Give* you a method? You want to get into space in the worst way,
don't you?

Unfortunately, I don't currently have access to the
afforementioned huge resources necessary to do said heavy
lifting myself, and so, yes, I can't wait for someone else to do
it.


And they say men of such daring are gone forever.

Like the OP, I'm somewhat disappointed, if not surprised, at
the lack of similar drive among those who do have the resources,
though recent well-publicized advances in private aerospace are
definitely encouraging.


LOL!!

The man wants space handed to him on a silver platter but is
"disappointed, if not surprised, in the lack of similar drive in
others".

Jim Davis

  #16  
Old May 21st 05, 04:43 AM
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lclough wrote:
wrote:

Otherwise, why would embittered clowns like yourself have to spend

so
many hours trying to refute the obvious?





Historically, there are only three engines that drive
exploration.


False, and laughably so. The human motivations involved can hardly be
reduced to three.

The prospect of material wealth (gold, oil, whale
blubber, a quarter section of prairie) is far and away the most
popular.


That motivation and others are *not* mutually exclusive. Many pioneers
have been motivated by the prospect of material wealth *and* the
prospect of adventure, for example.

Another very common motivation in the past is
nationalism -- we must get to the Moon, Antarctica, the New
World, before those awful Communists, Norwegians, or Portugese
do it.


Do you think the Apollo missions were motivated *solely* by
nationalism, to the exclusion of the sense of wonder, exploration,
fascination with the unknown, etc.? If so, you are completely out of
touch with reality.

Religious reasons come in third, and supply a handy
cloak to cover the naked ambition of the first two motives. We
want to convert the heathens to Christianity, or teach the
natives about Islam.


Again, this hardly excludes other motivations.


For these three goals, people and governments are willing to
spend money. Any other motives -- science, the love of the
unknown, and so on -- may be bruited merrily about, but they
don't open wallets.


Obviously false. You really shouldn't say something so silly, because
it damages your credibility. If people weren't fascinated with the
unknown, you'd see *far* less support for the space program. Why do you
think they even showed the moon landing on television? People were
fascinated with our unchartered, faraway moon being explored for the
first time. Are you really dense enough to believe that fascination
doesn't enter the picture? Many people saw it as a "great leap for
mankind," not just for Americans.

By the way, why do you think people even *open wallets* to buy your
sci-fi novels, if not fascination with the unknown? And yet here you
are, denying that such fascination exists at all. Are you so dead
inside that you can see no wonder in exploring new worlds? Why do you
write scifi then? Solely to make money? I'm puzzled. Aren't there
easier and more obvious career paths for someone who so completely
lacks a sense of wonder?


Are there any solid examples in history of major exploration
driven by a goal other than the big three? The only one I can
think of is, possibly, Alexander the Great. Who had enough
money, after conquering Persia, and enough empire, to keep
anybody happy, and the Greeks were not really evangelizers -- so
what drove him to try and conquer India? But then Alexander did
not really have to consult with others.


You seem to be changing your argument now and backing off from your
original premise. Yes, I would say that Alexander was driven in part by
a sense of adventure and heroism. But this is nothing that exceptional.
I would say that a vast number of expeditions throughout history have
been motivated in part by a sense of wonder, adventure, and desire to
explore the unknown. To deny this is to deny something essential to
humanity. When a child sneaks out of bed to find out what lurks in some
forbidden room, that is the drive to explore manifest. To pretend this
drive has never motivated exploration is simply absurd. It happens *all
the time*. Hell, people vicariously explore other worlds through
science fiction because of this drive. Being an apparent scifi author,
you should be the *last* person not to know that.

  #17  
Old May 21st 05, 05:01 AM
Logan Kearsley
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"Jim Davis" wrote in message
. 247.90...
Logan Kearsley wrote:

Give me a method of contributing to the heavy lifting, and I'll
do it myself.


*Give* you a method? You want to get into space in the worst way,
don't you?


As in 'inform me of what I can do to help', not 'donate oodles of cash'.

Unfortunately, I don't currently have access to the
aforementioned huge resources necessary to do said heavy
lifting myself, and so, yes, I can't wait for someone else to do
it.


And they say men of such daring are gone forever.


Oh, thine sarcasm pierces me to the very heart! I die, melodrama, melodrama!

Like the OP, I'm somewhat disappointed, if not surprised, at
the lack of similar drive among those who do have the resources,
though recent well-publicized advances in private aerospace are
definitely encouraging.


LOL!!

The man wants space handed to him on a silver platter but is
"disappointed, if not surprised, in the lack of similar drive in
others".


Hardly. Possibly the OP wants space handed to him on a silver platter,
although I'd be more ready to ascribe his comments to a bit of
overenthusiasm. I'd *like* space handed to me on a silver platter- heck, who
wouldn't?- but I'm perfectly willing to work for it, just as soon as I
figure out exactly what to do.

-l.
------------------------------------
My inbox is a sacred shrine, none shall enter that are not worthy.


  #20  
Old May 21st 05, 05:14 AM
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Logan Kearsley wrote:

Hardly. Possibly the OP wants space handed to him on a silver

platter,

Um, no. Where do you get such an idea? Nowhere have I stated such an
expectation or even *implied* it. Quite the opposite, in fact. As I've
already stated, I don't expect *anything* to be handed to me, on or off
a silver platter.

although I'd be more ready to ascribe his comments to a bit of
overenthusiasm.


How so?

I'd *like* space handed to me on a silver platter- heck, who
wouldn't?- but I'm perfectly willing to work for it, just as soon as

I
figure out exactly what to do.


Well, according to Brenda Clough's original argument, *no one* would
want to explore space. Or any other frontier. That is, unless they
could make money doing it, or please God and Country. IOW, Brenda
believes that people do not explore to explore; that no one is truly
fascinated with the unknown. Apparently, in her strange universe,
people must read scifi simply to pass time; a desire to vicariously
explore other worlds has nothing to do with it! According to several
others here, only a tiny percentage of people (if that) have the urge
to explore. For 99.9% of people, say these naysayers, a desire to
explore simply does not exist. It's not me who is overenthusiastic.
It's these naysayers who lack *any* enthusiasm. They're dead inside.

 




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