Project Constellation Questions

I've heard that the first Unmanned flight of the Project
Constellation/CEV might occur as earily as '07 or '08, but it won't
become operational til '14.
Are they talking about the full Lunar Version being operational by
then? Surely it shouldn't take that long to develop the LEO version,
should it? All we are talking about is a new & improved version of
the Apollo CSM. How long did it take to develop the original Apollo?
Of course we aren't under the same time limit then as now, but it
shouldn't need to take 6-7 years to develop?

Constellation Testing how would it proceed?
How many Unmanned launches would they do before the first crewed
launch?
On the first Crewed launch will it be just one or the full crew?
Would they attempt to Dock with ISS on the first Crewed mission?
(Or would they attempt to do an automated docking with and unmanned
mission?)
Depending on who wins the Bid, Boening or LM, is the Constellation/CEV
going to be exclusive launched on their EELV or will it be made to
work with either one?
(If its designed to work with multiple EELVs, is it possible that it
might work with Araine or H2?)

If Bush's Moon/Mars gets the Green light, which I agree is doubtful
Will they go thru the same sequence of testing as Apollo did like:
Apollo 8,9 & 10 or will they skip 8 & 9 and go directly to Apollo 10 &
Beyound

Regardless of a Moon/Mars mission or not does anyone see this
happening:
Constellation Shenzhou Project/Mission?

The only thing I'm having trouble seeing is how the Constellation will
fit into a Mars mission.

Comments anyone?

Space Cadet

derwetzelsDASHmailATyahooDOTcom

I suspect that, the way the plan will fall out, the most you will see in 08
will be an unmanned flight of the crew module on an EELV. More likely, it will
slip a year or two. I'd guess at least two unmanned launches will be made -
more if there are problems.
It's likely the winning contractor will design the bird for their own
heavy-lift EELV. The EELVs are similar but not perfectly compatible.

Matt Bille
)
OPINIONS IN ALL POSTS ARE SOLELY THOSE OF THE AUTHOR

(Space Cadet) wrote in
m:

I've heard that the first Unmanned flight of the Project
Constellation/CEV might occur as earily as '07 or '08, but it won't
become operational til '14.
Are they talking about the full Lunar Version being operational by
then?

Yes. Manned lunar flights would start the following year, 2015.

Surely it shouldn't take that long to develop the LEO version,
should it? All we are talking about is a new & improved version of
the Apollo CSM. How long did it take to develop the original Apollo?
Of course we aren't under the same time limit then as now, but it
shouldn't need to take 6-7 years to develop?

Apollo started under Eisenhower but didn't get serious funding until
Kennedy's first budget, FY1962. It made its first manned flight in 1968.

CEV is starting now but faces a similar funding "wedge": right now it is
being funded mostly by redirecting OSP and shuttle upgrades. It will start
getting serious funding when the shuttle is retired in 2010.

Constellation Testing how would it proceed?
How many Unmanned launches would they do before the first crewed
launch?
On the first Crewed launch will it be just one or the full crew?
Would they attempt to Dock with ISS on the first Crewed mission?
(Or would they attempt to do an automated docking with and unmanned
mission?)

No one knows yet. These questions are premature. CEV hasn't even been
designed yet. Don't be fooled by the pretty pictures on the Boeing and L-M
websites - that's concept art, not a vehicle design.

Depending on who wins the Bid, Boening or LM, is the Constellation/CEV
going to be exclusive launched on their EELV or will it be made to
work with either one?

Working with both EELVs is a NASA requirement.

(If its designed to work with multiple EELVs, is it possible that it
might work with Araine or H2?)

Ariane V, perhaps. H-2A, less likely - it may not be big enough, depending
on the actual design of the CEV. Anyway, if ESA and Japan become partners
in the program they could contribute launches as part of their share. Very
little chance the US would buy launches from them, though.

If Bush's Moon/Mars gets the Green light, which I agree is doubtful
Will they go thru the same sequence of testing as Apollo did like:
Apollo 8,9 & 10 or will they skip 8 & 9 and go directly to Apollo 10 &
Beyound

No one knows yet. See above, and also ponder this: this proposal is barely
a month old. A month after Kennedy's speech, no one knew how Apollo would
get to the moon, either. The debates between EOR, LOR, and Direct were just
beginning.

Regardless of a Moon/Mars mission or not does anyone see this
happening:
Constellation Shenzhou Project/Mission?

That depends a lot more on the Chinese than it does on us.

The only thing I'm having trouble seeing is how the Constellation will
fit into a Mars mission.

It would be the Earth return vehicle. The crew would live in a larger hab
during the coast back, and transfer into the CEV and undock for reentry.

--
JRF

Reply-to address spam-proofed - to reply by E-mail,
check "Organization" (I am not assimilated) and
think one step ahead of IBM.

"Space Cadet" wrote in message
m...
I've heard that the first Unmanned flight of the Project
Constellation/CEV might occur as earily as '07 or '08, but it won't
become operational til '14.
Are they talking about the full Lunar Version being operational by
then?

No.

Surely it shouldn't take that long to develop the LEO version,
should it?

It will. There will be little money for it.

All we are talking about is a new & improved version of
the Apollo CSM. How long did it take to develop the original Apollo?
Of course we aren't under the same time limit then as now, but it
shouldn't need to take 6-7 years to develop?

Money, money, money.
Compare the funding levels.

In article ,
Space Cadet wrote:
I've heard that the first Unmanned flight of the Project
Constellation/CEV might occur as earily as '07 or '08, but it won't
become operational til '14.
Are they talking about the full Lunar Version being operational by then?

Almost certainly this will be the CSM equivalent, not incorporating a
lunar lander. The long delay between initial testing and operational
status has not really been explained...

Surely it shouldn't take that long to develop the LEO version,
should it?

Well, it *shouldn't*, but...

All we are talking about is a new & improved version of
the Apollo CSM. How long did it take to develop the original Apollo?
Of course we aren't under the same time limit then as now, but it
shouldn't need to take 6-7 years to develop?

First flight in 4-5 years is a bit challenging -- that's an Apollo-class
timescale without Apollo-class funding -- but another 6 years after that
is rather hard to explain.

How many Unmanned launches would they do before the first crewed launch?

As few as they can get away with, probably only one or two.

On the first Crewed launch will it be just one or the full crew?

Likely it will have a full *crew*, but probably no *passengers*. (You
really only need a crew of one or two for such a vehicle.)

Would they attempt to Dock with ISS on the first Crewed mission?

Most likely, yes -- there's little point in having a manned test which
just sits around in orbit duplicating the unmanned tests. As on Apollo 8,
once you put a crew in it, you might as well have them go somewhere.

(Or would they attempt to do an automated docking with and unmanned
mission?)

Whether it even *has* unmanned docking capability depends on later
priorities. It easily might not.

Depending on who wins the Bid, Boening or LM, is the Constellation/CEV
going to be exclusive launched on their EELV or will it be made to
work with either one?

Almost certainly, operation on either EELV will be a contract requirement,
unless the winning bidder can make a compelling case that it's impossible.
But the EELVs will probably need modifications, and NASA may well give one
or the other priority on that, instead of doing both simultaneously... so
there may be only one choice for the first little while. (If NASA was
smart, they'd specify initial capability on the *other* company's EELV.)

(If its designed to work with multiple EELVs, is it possible that it
might work with Araine or H2?)

It probably would, although that may not be of much interest.

If Bush's Moon/Mars gets the Green light, which I agree is doubtful
Will they go thru the same sequence of testing as Apollo did like:
Apollo 8,9 & 10 or will they skip 8 & 9 and go directly to Apollo 10...

Remember that Apollo never intended to do things in the order they did;
Apollo 8 was an improvisation, working around delays in the LM.

You definitely want to do an Apollo 9 equivalent, the Apollo D mission,
checking out the lunar lander close to home. (Although you have to read
the technical papers to hear about it, there were some significant issues
with the LM that got found on Apollo 9 and fixed before Apollo 10.)

Apollo originally planned an E mission, a second checkout flight at high
altitude but not near the Moon. That would probably be worth doing only
if the D mission found bad LM problems, justifying a second checkout to
make sure they'd been fixed right. Many people thought there was a good
chance of that on Apollo, but in the end it didn't happen that way and
the E mission was canceled.

So if the D mission went halfway well and the issues from it seemed
manageable, probably you'd go straight from there to the F mission, the
dress rehearsal, Apollo 10.

Whether you'd get an Apollo 8 equivalent somewhere in there would depend
on politics, as it did in the real world. (The clinching argument for
doing a lunar-orbit mission without an LM was the possibility that the
Soviets were about to do a manned Zond lunar flyby.)

Regardless of a Moon/Mars mission or not does anyone see this
happening: Constellation Shenzhou Project/Mission?

A joint mission of that sort seems very unlikely. Relations are currently
cool enough that people wouldn't be enthusiastic about it, but not cold
enough to make expensive symbolic gestures of friendship appealing after a
future thaw. There would have to be some real gain for both sides, and
it's not obvious what it would be.

The only thing I'm having trouble seeing is how the Constellation will
fit into a Mars mission.

It doesn't, except possibly as the Earth reentry capsule, used at the
very end. (You'd want bigger living quarters for the journey.)
--
MOST launched 30 June; science observations running | Henry Spencer
since Oct; first surprises seen; papers pending. |

"Jorge R. Frank" wrote:
(Space Cadet) wrote in
om:

Surely it shouldn't take that long to develop the LEO version,
should it? All we are talking about is a new & improved version of
the Apollo CSM. How long did it take to develop the original Apollo?
Of course we aren't under the same time limit then as now, but it
shouldn't need to take 6-7 years to develop?

Apollo started under Eisenhower but didn't get serious funding until
Kennedy's first budget, FY1962. It made its first manned flight in 1968.

CEV is starting now but faces a similar funding "wedge": right now it is
being funded mostly by redirecting OSP and shuttle upgrades. It will start
getting serious funding when the shuttle is retired in 2010.

The situations are not quite parallel. Apollo was a concept for a
general orbiter that was kicking around from a very early date. The
serious funding (1962) was for a quite different ship, a command
element for a lunar mission. There is a lot similar in the two
designs, but also a great deal different, but I'd say Apollo only
really started in 1962.

D.
--
The STS-107 Columbia Loss FAQ can be found
at the following URLs:

Text-Only Version:
http://www.io.com/~o_m/columbia_loss_faq.html

Enhanced HTML Version:
http://www.io.com/~o_m/columbia_loss_faq_x.html

Corrections, comments, and additions should be
e-mailed to , as well as posted to
sci.space.history and sci.space.shuttle for
discussion.

It will be interesting to see how much of the original NAR Apollo vehicle design
is reincorporated into the new ship. Furthermore, I believe it should be built
with the capability to dock with a LEM type vehicle. In order to declare the
program as a success, humans will have to re-occupy the lunar surface, and this
time without a conclusion deadline.
I have to agree with Henry, the goal is too fantastic for the time frame and lack
of proper funding. In the meantime, NASA will have to remain productive with the
ISS and deep-space probes through this solar system and visualizing others.
Fortunately, we don't necessarily have the obligation to run project Mercury and
Gemini training-wheel sessions to get moving. One thing should be observed as a
word of caution: This new program must not fail to talk to those people whose
experience made the Apollo missions successful. There will be more deaths and
there will be more Gemini 8 and Apollo 13-like situation in this learning curve.
Expect it.
"Challenger" and "Columbia" type accidents won't happen until we get sloppy
again, declaring that rocketing into space is once again, operational, with
nothing novel in each mission. Every flight is novel.

Space Cadet wrote:

I've heard that the first Unmanned flight of the Project
Constellation/CEV might occur as earily as '07 or '08, but it won't
become operational til '14.
Are they talking about the full Lunar Version being operational by
then? Surely it shouldn't take that long to develop the LEO version,
should it? All we are talking about is a new & improved version of
the Apollo CSM. How long did it take to develop the original Apollo?
Of course we aren't under the same time limit then as now, but it
shouldn't need to take 6-7 years to develop?

Constellation Testing how would it proceed?
How many Unmanned launches would they do before the first crewed
launch?
On the first Crewed launch will it be just one or the full crew?
Would they attempt to Dock with ISS on the first Crewed mission?
(Or would they attempt to do an automated docking with and unmanned
mission?)
Depending on who wins the Bid, Boening or LM, is the Constellation/CEV
going to be exclusive launched on their EELV or will it be made to
work with either one?
(If its designed to work with multiple EELVs, is it possible that it
might work with Araine or H2?)

If Bush's Moon/Mars gets the Green light, which I agree is doubtful
Will they go thru the same sequence of testing as Apollo did like:
Apollo 8,9 & 10 or will they skip 8 & 9 and go directly to Apollo 10 &
Beyound

Regardless of a Moon/Mars mission or not does anyone see this
happening:
Constellation Shenzhou Project/Mission?

The only thing I'm having trouble seeing is how the Constellation will
fit into a Mars mission.

Comments anyone?

Space Cadet

derwetzelsDASHmailATyahooDOTcom


does this involve going back to throwaway rockets like the titans atlas,
etc. instead of another reusable shuttle?

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:24:04 -0500, Dilbert Firestorm
wrote:


I've heard that the first Unmanned flight of the Project
Constellation/CEV might occur as earily as '07 or '08, but it won't
become operational til '14.

does this involve going back to throwaway rockets like the titans atlas,
etc. instead of another reusable shuttle?

Yes. Constellation is to be launched on versions of both the Atlas V
and Delta IV expendable rockets (both of which entered service in
2002.)

There is nothing to preclude a Constellation being launched on a
reusable vehicle in the future, should one appear on the market, but
NASA has abandoned its effort to develop a Reusable Launch Vehicle.

Brian

"Henry Spencer" wrote in message
...
Almost certainly this will be the CSM equivalent, not incorporating a
lunar lander. The long delay between initial testing and operational
status has not really been explained...

An extensive test program is envisioned at present.

Surely it shouldn't take that long to develop the LEO version,
should it?

Well, it *shouldn't*, but...

This is not a crash program with tons of money to spend.

First flight in 4-5 years is a bit challenging -- that's an Apollo-class
timescale without Apollo-class funding -- but another 6 years after that
is rather hard to explain.

Spiral development. There will be boilerplate tests at first, followed by
block I vehicles that will evaluate performance in abort scenarios and
flight-test systems in a spiraling path to block II.

How many Unmanned launches would they do before the first crewed launch?

As few as they can get away with, probably only one or two.

Initial timelines show quite a number of unmanned flight tests. remember
that this is in the post-CAIB environment.

(Or would they attempt to do an automated docking with and unmanned
mission?)

Whether it even *has* unmanned docking capability depends on later
priorities. It easily might not.

Early indications are that it will have autonomous rendezvous and docking.

At this point in the project there are a huge number of internally-asked,
unanswered questions. A solid path probably won't emerge for six months or
more.

-Kim-