Mars - Rio Tinto River Microbiology

March 17, 2004

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2002/pdf/1226.pdf

http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/200...JE001918.shtml

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/69/8/4853

Thomas Lee Elifritz
http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net

(Thomas Lee Elifritz) wrote in message . com...
March 17, 2004

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2002/pdf/1226.pdf

perhaps it would be sensible to put the portion that you though
supported your idea of a biological origin. Beause this paper rejects
a biological origin for the 'organic appearing' features in question:
"Although the fine-scalelamination found in older terrace deposits
resembles microbial mat laminae, this texture appears to have
originated mostly if not entirely during diagenesis."


http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/200...JE001918.shtml

agian, you really need to point out what in particular you find
helpful here. You have been positing that the spherules are formed by
bacteria building spores around themselves.

the closest that this paper comes to in supporting any arguement for
life on mars, and has nothing special to say about your particualar
theory is:
" A chemolithotrophic community that biooxidizes the Iberian Pyritic
Belt, acidifying water (pH between 0.9 and 3.0) and favoring high
concentrations of ferric iron in solution (up to 20 g·L-1), maintains
this iron-driven system. In spite of these extreme conditions, high
microbial diversity was found. Its acidic bacteria, archaea, and
eukarya constitute a complex community supported by algal biomass in
highly stable hydrochemical conditions, which are achieved through
iron buffering. The pH is maintained at constant low levels even at
very high water dilution. In these conditions, iron minerals as
oxyhydroxides, hydroxides, and sulfates are formed."

sulfates i beleiev have been found, but I don't think that any of this
is wildly helpful. If anything, it suggests that a wide diversity of
organisms are required for this ph buffering process. It says nothing
about organisms forming iron spores.




http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/69/8/4853

again, you need to point out where in this paper there is supporting
eveidence. I saw nothing about concretions or spherules in there.
The paper has a lot about the genetic/relationships of the varied
microorganisms that are in the system. the only really relevant
portion is
"The Tinto River (Huelva, southwestern Spain) is an extreme
environment with a rather constant acidic pH along the entire river
and a high concentration of heavy metals. The extreme conditions of
the Tinto ecosystem are generated by the metabolic activity of
chemolithotrophic microorganisms thriving in the rich complex sulfides
of the Iberian Pyrite Belt. Molecular ecology techniques were used to
analyze the diversity of this microbial community. "

So what evidence do you have for similar control of ph in the region
under consideration? Where any heamatite spherules found in the Tinto
River? What do they look like and what is their origin? How would
those hypothetical sphereules in teh tinto river relate to the
spherules on mars?

IOW, what evidence do you havethat the spherules on mars are the
result of biological processes?

Thomas Lee Elifritz
http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net

March 18, 2004

(R.Schenck) wrote in message :

(Thomas Lee Elifritz) wrote in message :

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2002/pdf/1226.pdf

perhaps it would be sensible to put the portion that you though
supported your idea of a biological origin.

The post was informational, make of it what you will, you have already
demonstrated yourself to be a skeptical fool.

Beause this paper rejects
a biological origin for the 'organic appearing' features in question:
"Although the fine-scalelamination found in older terrace deposits
resembles microbial mat laminae, this texture appears to have
originated mostly if not entirely during diagenesis."

The paper is an pre-MER abstract, intended to put the subsequent
spectroscopic discoveries into context. The context here, of course,
is diagenesis as possible fossilization.

http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/200...JE001918.shtml

agian, you really need to point out what in particular you find
helpful here.

I don't have to do anything. You have yet to make any claims or posit
any hypothesis, just expouse a particularly boring version of
skeptical crackpottery.

You have been positing that the spherules are formed by
bacteria building spores around themselves.

As one of many working hypothses. Another more plausible hypothesis is
simple microbiological concretion.

the closest that this paper comes to in supporting any arguement for
life on mars, and has nothing special to say about your particualar
theory is:

" A chemolithotrophic community that biooxidizes the Iberian Pyritic
Belt, acidifying water (pH between 0.9 and 3.0) and favoring high
concentrations of ferric iron in solution (up to 20 g·L-1), maintains
this iron-driven system. In spite of these extreme conditions, high
microbial diversity was found. Its acidic bacteria, archaea, and
eukarya constitute a complex community supported by algal biomass in
highly stable hydrochemical conditions, which are achieved through
iron buffering. The pH is maintained at constant low levels even at
very high water dilution. In these conditions, iron minerals as
oxyhydroxides, hydroxides, and sulfates are formed."

Than-you so much for throwing up on the usenet.

sulfates i beleiev have been found, but I don't think that any of this
is wildly helpful.

Again, since you have offered no evidence, and I have, I claim you are
nothing but a skeptical scientific fraud.

If anything, it suggests that a wide diversity of
organisms are required for this ph buffering process. It says nothing
about organisms forming iron spores.

And if you read that next full paper, you will see that premise is not
supported by the evidence.

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/69/8/4853

again, you need to point out where in this paper there is supporting
eveidence. I saw nothing about concretions or spherules in there.

I notice Rio Tinto is in Spain, of Earth.

The paper has a lot about the genetic/relationships of the varied
microorganisms that are in the system. the only really relevant
portion is

"The Tinto River (Huelva, southwestern Spain) is an extreme
environment with a rather constant acidic pH along the entire river
and a high concentration of heavy metals. The extreme conditions of
the Tinto ecosystem are generated by the metabolic activity of
chemolithotrophic microorganisms thriving in the rich complex sulfides
of the Iberian Pyrite Belt. Molecular ecology techniques were used to
analyze the diversity of this microbial community. "

Again, thank-you so much for regurtitating on the usenet. It's so
helpful.

So what evidence do you have for similar control of ph in the region
under consideration? Where any heamatite spherules found in the Tinto
River? What do they look like and what is their origin? How would
those hypothetical sphereules in teh tinto river relate to the
spherules on mars?

Clearly the implied depositional ph on Mars is rather low, whereas if
you had done your homework, you will see that most hematite formation
scenarios work with alkaline depositional environments.

IOW, what evidence do you havethat the spherules on mars are the
result of biological processes?

Again, I have systematically been supplying evidence and offering
plausible origin and evolution scenarios for the last several weeks,
systematically knocking crackpot theories down one by one, with
evidence. You on the other hand, suddenly appear, offering skepticism,
without formulating any plausible counter hypotheses, conveniently
when the only plausible counter hypothesis is pure inorganic
sedimentation, and without offering any evidence whatsoever. I have
no reason to take any of your claims seriously as you have no
demonstrated scientific credibility whatsoever. However, I can test
that, with evidence :

http://www.google.com/groups?safe=im...=d&lr=&hl=e n

That's pretty laughable from a scientific point of view.

The hypothesis that you are a crackpot is confirmed.

Thomas Lee Elifritz
http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net

(Thomas Lee Elifritz) wrote in message . com...
March 18, 2004

(R.Schenck) wrote in message :

(Thomas Lee Elifritz) wrote in message :

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2002/pdf/1226.pdf

perhaps it would be sensible to put the portion that you though
supported your idea of a biological origin.

The post was informational, make of it what you will, you have already
demonstrated yourself to be a skeptical fool.

Better a skeptical fool than a credulous fool. A skeptical fool will
at least be able to operate in a scientific manner.

Beause this paper rejects
a biological origin for the 'organic appearing' features in question:
"Although the fine-scalelamination found in older terrace deposits
resembles microbial mat laminae, this texture appears to have
originated mostly if not entirely during diagenesis."

The paper is an pre-MER abstract, intended to put the subsequent
spectroscopic discoveries into context. The context here, of course,
is diagenesis as possible fossilization.

ok, i didn't know that you don't know what you are talking about.
Sorry, my mistake. Diagenisis is unrelated to fossilization. The
only structures in the spherules are the result of diagenesis, not the
fossilized structure of an organism.

http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/200...JE001918.shtml

agian, you really need to point out what in particular you find
helpful here.

I don't have to do anything. You have yet to make any claims or posit
any hypothesis, just expouse a particularly boring version of
skeptical crackpottery.

You maintain that there is something in these papers that supports you
ideas. There isn't anything.

You have been positing that the spherules are formed by
bacteria building spores around themselves.

As one of many working hypothses. Another more plausible hypothesis is
simple microbiological concretion.

Which again none of these papers support.

the closest that this paper comes to in supporting any arguement for
life on mars, and has nothing special to say about your particualar
theory is:

" A chemolithotrophic community that biooxidizes the Iberian Pyritic
Belt, acidifying water (pH between 0.9 and 3.0) and favoring high
concentrations of ferric iron in solution (up to 20 g·L-1), maintains
this iron-driven system. In spite of these extreme conditions, high
microbial diversity was found. Its acidic bacteria, archaea, and
eukarya constitute a complex community supported by algal biomass in
highly stable hydrochemical conditions, which are achieved through
iron buffering. The pH is maintained at constant low levels even at
very high water dilution. In these conditions, iron minerals as
oxyhydroxides, hydroxides, and sulfates are formed."

Than-you so much for throwing up on the usenet.

You are the one who posted the links to these papers and you are the
one who says they somehow support your position

sulfates i beleiev have been found, but I don't think that any of this
is wildly helpful.

Again, since you have offered no evidence, and I have, I claim you are
nothing but a skeptical scientific fraud.

You sir are the fraud. You don't even understand what these papers
are about let alone what they import and what they support. Your
ideas have not been rejected out of hand, you presented these papers
as supportive of your 'theories' and I approached them in the only
manner possible. I read them. Perhaps you shoudl try reading them.
You are the fraud, there is nothing in these papers that supports your
ideas and most of them contradict them. Why don't you try reading
them.

If anything, it suggests that a wide diversity of
organisms are required for this ph buffering process. It says nothing
about organisms forming iron spores.

And if you read that next full paper, you will see that premise is not
supported by the evidence.

Your unsupoprted assertions are meaningless. What about the evidence
doesn't support the premise of the paper? why did you present the
paper if it wrong? why didn't you just present the paper that shows
that paper to be wrong? Could it be becase there is no such paper?
Could it be that you just googled up for a few key terms and assumed
that any paper containing those terms would support your ideas? Yes,
it appears that is that case. Because these papers -contradict- your
hypothesis, and you presented them as -supporting- your hypothesis.

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/69/8/4853

again, you need to point out where in this paper there is supporting
eveidence. I saw nothing about concretions or spherules in there.

I notice Rio Tinto is in Spain, of Earth.

then why did you post it if its entirely irrelevant.

The paper has a lot about the genetic/relationships of the varied
microorganisms that are in the system. the only really relevant
portion is

"The Tinto River (Huelva, southwestern Spain) is an extreme
environment with a rather constant acidic pH along the entire river
and a high concentration of heavy metals. The extreme conditions of
the Tinto ecosystem are generated by the metabolic activity of
chemolithotrophic microorganisms thriving in the rich complex sulfides
of the Iberian Pyrite Belt. Molecular ecology techniques were used to
analyze the diversity of this microbial community. "

Again, thank-you so much for regurtitating on the usenet. It's so
helpful.

Fraud. Are you surprised at whats in the paper? you should be since
you apparently didn't read or didn't understand it.

So what evidence do you have for similar control of ph in the region
under consideration? Where any heamatite spherules found in the Tinto
River? What do they look like and what is their origin? How would
those hypothetical sphereules in teh tinto river relate to the
spherules on mars?

Clearly the implied depositional ph on Mars is rather low, whereas if
you had done your homework, you will see that most hematite formation
scenarios work with alkaline depositional environments.

Theph was high in the region in question -because of- the organisms.
If the haematite is being formed from organisms, then the ph should be
hi. You are saying that the ph of the martian site is acidic. So that
would seem to contradict the idea that the haematite is formed by
organisms.

Are you saying that haematite is -only- formed in alkaline environs?

IOW, what evidence do you havethat the spherules on mars are the
result of biological processes?

Again, I have systematically been supplying evidence and offering
plausible origin and evolution scenarios for the last several weeks,
systematically knocking crackpot theories down one by one, with
evidence. You on the other hand, suddenly appear, offering skepticism,
without formulating any plausible counter hypotheses,

i do not need to offer a plausible counter hypothesis. I was simply
questioning you hypothesis and why you thought the papers supported
it. Is you hypothesis so weak that it can't withstand -any-
scrutiny??

conveniently
when the only plausible counter hypothesis is pure inorganic
sedimentation, and without offering any evidence whatsoever. I have
no reason to take any of your claims seriously as you have no
demonstrated scientific credibility whatsoever.


However, I can test
that, with evidence :

http://www.google.com/groups?safe=im...=d&lr=&hl=e n

That's pretty laughable from a scientific point of view.
The hypothesis that you are a crackpot is confirmed.
wow, thats pretty impressive. in a post about your inability to
present information that supports your assertions, you do just that.

So, basically, you couldn't answer any of my questions about your
hypothesis and the papers you thought supported it. The only
exception to this is where you said that haematite forms in alkaline
environs, and the martian site had an acidic deposition envrionment.
Of course, you also maintain that the spherules are formed by
microorganisms, and the papers talked about microorganisms being the
factor responsible for the environ -having- an alkaline environ.

Wow, I am spectacularly underwhelmed by your argumentative and
rhetorical style, along with your inability to understand basic
science, and the amazing statement that 'skepticism is bad'. I wish
that we could about the evidence involved, but you don't seem to have
any.

March 19, 2004

(R.Schenck) wrote in message :

ok, i didn't know that you don't know what you are talking about.
Sorry, my mistake. Diagenisis is unrelated to fossilization. The
only structures in the spherules are the result of diagenesis, not the
fossilized structure of an organism.

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache...hl=en&ie=UTF-8

You are an confirmed idiot. Everything else you say is suspect.

[snip nonsense]

I notice Rio Tinto is in Spain, of Earth.

then why did you post it if its entirely irrelevant.

Did I say that? You are also an absolutist. The papers were posted for
you to read, no claims of their relevance was made pro or con, reading
them would have made that self evident.

I have
no reason to take any of your claims seriously as you have no
demonstrated scientific credibility whatsoever.

However, I can test
that, with evidence :
http://www.google.com/groups?safe=im...=d&lr=&hl=e n

That's pretty laughable from a scientific point of view.
The hypothesis that you are a crackpot is confirmed.

wow, thats pretty impressive. in a post about your inability to
present information that supports your assertions, you do just that.

No, I search your usenet posting history and notice that you have
endlessly trolled talk.origins for the last few years. Welcome to my
filter file.

So, basically, you couldn't answer any of my questions about your
hypothesis and the papers you thought supported it.

It wasn't my hypothesis.

The only
exception to this is where you said that haematite forms in alkaline
environs, and the martian site had an acidic deposition envrionment.

You are also a liar.

Of course, you also maintain that the spherules are formed by
microorganisms, and the papers talked about microorganisms being the
factor responsible for the environ -having- an alkaline environ.

Again you lie to make some kind of pathetic point.

Wow, I am spectacularly underwhelmed by your argumentative and
rhetorical style, along with your inability to understand basic
science, and the amazing statement that 'skepticism is bad'. I wish
that we could about the evidence involved, but you don't seem to have
any.

None that you could grok with your simpleton mind.

You are good at debating crackpots, though.

Thomas Lee Elifritz
http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net

warrant out for (jeff) AKA Alan P )
The Day & Night Stalker Is Now (jeff) mail theft,
day and night Stalker , car washer, milk man, paper boy, Grand Theft Auto ,
harassment phones calls, cyberstalking, epar, bank robber been
in & out of folsom AND LIKES KIDS IF YOU GET WHAT I MEAN.

what did (jeff) AKA "Alan p" do for
a living cleans portable, pizza boy driver and he works at the dump. but now
he is on the run agin from the fbi,local pd an sheriff and amw.com john walsh.
he went to diablo high but something went wrong and enter the life of crime.


"Jeff Bond" wrote in message

Let's meet there so you can show me
what a dangerous guy you are. I'll even buy you a burger and fries.
Name the time and I'll be there.


1. I don't eat burger and fries so i don't where you got that info.
along with all the other **** you little chicken.


2. Let's meet you chicken 3pm 3-10-04 at lat 37.8400869 long -122.10405
you little chicken bok bok if you can get away form doing the pizza
doll

"Jeff Bond" IS A 100% NO SHOW HOT AIR CHICKEN
****.

I WAS AT lat 37.8400869 long -122.10405 AT 3PM where where you
LITTLE CHICKEN **** JEFF BOND
BUT NO LITTLE CHICKEN **** JEFF , LITTLE CHICKEN **** JEFF
BUT NO LITTLE CHICKEN **** JEFF , LITTLE CHICKEN **** JEFF
BUT NO LITTLE CHICKEN **** JEFF , LITTLE CHICKEN **** JEFF
BUT NO LITTLE CHICKEN **** JEFF , LITTLE CHICKEN **** JEFF


"Jeff Bond" wrote in message ...
Okay, I confess. I stole your mail, stalked you day and night,
stole a car and left it in your driveway, made harassing phone calls to
you (while my wife screamed at me), and yes, I even cyberstalked you.
Oh, and that old grey and red Honda? Yeah, that's mine too (in
addition to the White Bronco like OJ's).

But I'll have you know I am *not* 5'8" and 160 pounds. Get your facts
straight! im a 3' stalker troll that plays w/his 2" all day.



o we all have your facts straight sbc, police, sheriff
with video with sound, pics , phone tapes by me & sbc.
so why don't you call det.at and at and at and sbc.

they will be more then happy to take you back to the funny farm
and lock you up in the big white room.

LITTLE CHICKEN **** JEFF

Elvis, Thank You, thank you very much


Day & Night Stalker Is Now (jeff) mail theft, day
and night
Stalker , Grand Theft Auto , harassment phones calls, cyberstalking

what did (jeff) AKA "Alan p" do for
a living
cleans portable, pizza boy driver and he works at the dump. but now he
is on the run
from the fbi,local pd an sheriff. he went to diablo high but something
went wrong and
enter the life of crime.

vansole
what a sick puppy.

Gordy wrote in message
what a sick puppy.

even fbi,local pd and sheriff said what a sick puppy.
In a message dated 3/3/2004 11:50:24 AM Pacific Standard Time,
county.org writes:

Mr. Smith,

Pursuant to our phone conversation on 3/3/04 I have enclosed my
contact
information. I thank you for your time and would appreciate any
information you may find about "Jeff Bond" and his true identity.
I would also ask that YOU NOT TALK to ANYONE ABOUT "Jeff Bond"
before we are able to track him down. Should he learn that we
are seeking him, he may may be able to flee to mexico to avoid us.

I would appreciate, however, if you would let me know if you find
anything of interest on your video camera or trap any phone numbers
on caller ID or phone bill from him that might indicate where he is
located.

If you know when he has called you, a call to your phone company
should facilitate a review of your bill prior to arrival in the
mail and they should be able to give you the
phone number of who called you.

Detective Van @county.org
Violent Crimes Investigation Unit
Sheriff's Department

warrant out for (jeff) AKA Alan P )
The Day & Night Stalker Is Now (jeff) mail theft,
day and night Stalker , car washer, milk man, paper boy, Grand Theft Auto ,
harassment phones calls, cyberstalking, epar, bank robber been
in & out of folsom AND LIKES KIDS IF YOU GET WHAT I MEAN.

what did (jeff) AKA "Alan p" do for
a living cleans portable, pizza boy driver and he works at the dump. but now
he is on the run agin from the fbi,local pd an sheriff and amw.com john walsh.
he went to diablo high but something went wrong and enter the life of crime.


"Jeff Bond" wrote in message

Let's meet there so you can show me
what a dangerous guy you are. I'll even buy you a burger and fries.
Name the time and I'll be there.


1. I don't eat burger and fries so i don't where you got that info.
along with all the other **** you little chicken.


2. Let's meet you chicken 3pm 3-10-04 at lat 37.8400869 long -122.10405
you little chicken bok bok if you can get away form doing the pizza
doll

"Jeff Bond" IS A 100% NO SHOW HOT AIR CHICKEN
****.

I WAS AT lat 37.8400869 long -122.10405 AT 3PM where where you
LITTLE CHICKEN **** JEFF BOND
BUT NO LITTLE CHICKEN **** JEFF , LITTLE CHICKEN **** JEFF
BUT NO LITTLE CHICKEN **** JEFF , LITTLE CHICKEN **** JEFF
BUT NO LITTLE CHICKEN **** JEFF , LITTLE CHICKEN **** JEFF
BUT NO LITTLE CHICKEN **** JEFF , LITTLE CHICKEN **** JEFF


"Jeff Bond" wrote in message ...
Okay, I confess. I stole your mail, stalked you day and night,
stole a car and left it in your driveway, made harassing phone calls to
you (while my wife screamed at me), and yes, I even cyberstalked you.
Oh, and that old grey and red Honda? Yeah, that's mine too (in
addition to the White Bronco like OJ's).

But I'll have you know I am *not* 5'8" and 160 pounds. Get your facts
straight! im a 3' stalker troll that plays w/his 2" all day.



o we all have your facts straight sbc, police, sheriff
with video with sound, pics , phone tapes by me & sbc.
so why don't you call det.at and at and at and sbc.

they will be more then happy to take you back to the funny farm
and lock you up in the big white room.

LITTLE CHICKEN **** JEFF

Elvis, Thank You, thank you very much


Day & Night Stalker Is Now (jeff) mail theft, day
and night
Stalker , Grand Theft Auto , harassment phones calls, cyberstalking

what did (jeff) AKA "Alan p" do for
a living
cleans portable, pizza boy driver and he works at the dump. but now he
is on the run
from the fbi,local pd an sheriff. he went to diablo high but something
went wrong and
enter the life of crime.

vansole
what a sick puppy.

Gordy wrote in message
what a sick puppy.

even fbi,local pd and sheriff said what a sick puppy.
In a message dated 3/3/2004 11:50:24 AM Pacific Standard Time,
county.org writes:

Mr. Smith,

Pursuant to our phone conversation on 3/3/04 I have enclosed my
contact
information. I thank you for your time and would appreciate any
information you may find about "Jeff Bond" and his true identity.
I would also ask that YOU NOT TALK to ANYONE ABOUT "Jeff Bond"
before we are able to track him down. Should he learn that we
are seeking him, he may may be able to flee to mexico to avoid us.

I would appreciate, however, if you would let me know if you find
anything of interest on your video camera or trap any phone numbers
on caller ID or phone bill from him that might indicate where he is
located.

If you know when he has called you, a call to your phone company
should facilitate a review of your bill prior to arrival in the
mail and they should be able to give you the
phone number of who called you.

Detective Van @county.org
Violent Crimes Investigation Unit
Sheriff's Department