Coming full circle

On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 8:15:25 AM UTC+1, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
I have a ball posting images and putting them into context so that even you can come to understand things like how an evening appearance of a planet places it to the left of the Sun and a dawn appearance to the right of the Sun. Previously you couldn't understand this basic principle

Since your idea of astronomy is to misunderstand gifs and video clips on the web, I suppose it is not surprising that you think this is an amazing insight.

Those of us who actually look at the sky understood this aged 10.

There's something I don't quite get here. I have been an infrequent
visitor to this group off and on for over 20 years and have seldom
posted anything. I have seen more than a fair share of idiots come and
go, and I have even seen folks I had one time respected end up going
down the spiral. One thing that has always amazed me is why on Earth
people keep responding to this guy? I for the life of me can't figure
it out. I have him filtered, so only see him IF someone not filtered
responds to him and it happens ALL the time. Why waste all the time?
The guy is either a desperate attention getter, delusional, or has some
mental aberration but why oh why do people keep responding? Now THAT is
something that always amuses and yet sometimes annoys me.

JBL

The whining and complaining is merely noise and it has always been that way so every now and again an non-entity shows up with all guns blazing and then disappears back into the oblivion from whence they came. Another bunch of whiners are adamant they learned something as pre-teens but nothing supports that they did and besides, it is incredibly dishonorable to the work of the original Sun centered astronomers who worked off a flawed framework and also modern imaging which rectifies the situation. As for priority well I have to shrug at that one and refused to to drawn into something so crude.

"Now what is said here of Jupiter is to be understood of Saturn and Mars also. In Saturn these retrogressions are somewhat more frequent than in Jupiter, because its motion is slower than Jupiter's, so that the Earth overtakes it in a shorter time. In Mars they are rarer, its motion being faster than that of Jupiter, so that the Earth spends more time in catching up with it. Next, as to Venus and Mercury, whose circles are included within that of the Earth, stoppings and retrograde motions appear in them also, due not to any motion that really exists in them, but to the annual motion of the Earth. This is acutely demonstrated by Copernicus . . . " Galileo

The innovation where inner planetary phases work in tandem with direct/retrograde motion as gauged against the background stars is a 21st century innovation and splits perspectives off from the outer planets -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...7c68e5763c.jpg


The real extension of this planetary transition where a planet moves from an evening appearance to a morning appearance when it overtakes our slowing moving planet (with rare planetary transits involved) is the transition of the background stars from an evening to morning appearance due solel to the orbital motion of the Earth -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeQwYrfmvoQ


A mathematical 'genius' may not understand but somebody capable of inspiration will.

On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 12:15:25 AM UTC-7, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 12:40:22 AM UTC+1, palsing wrote:
On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 9:42:05 AM UTC-7, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

There is not a single contributor here that is worth discussing the matter with but I always thought that was made clear for such a long time anyway.

So... leave already, no one is forcing you to post here.

Nothing here for you from others, nothing here for others from you. Divorce is the logical option.

Are you kidding me !, I have a ball posting images and putting them into context so that even you can come to understand things like how an evening appearance of a planet places it to the left of the Sun and a dawn appearance to the right of the Sun. Previously you couldn't understand this basic principle but now you do even if you are ungrateful. The same goes for the background stars due to the orbital motion of the Earth.

You are one ignorant *******, aren't you? I knew these things before you were born, you sad creature!

On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 10:22:52 PM UTC+1, palsing wrote:
On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 12:15:25 AM UTC-7, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 12:40:22 AM UTC+1, palsing wrote:
On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 9:42:05 AM UTC-7, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

There is not a single contributor here that is worth discussing the matter with but I always thought that was made clear for such a long time anyway.

So... leave already, no one is forcing you to post here.

Nothing here for you from others, nothing here for others from you. Divorce is the logical option.

Are you kidding me !, I have a ball posting images and putting them into context so that even you can come to understand things like how an evening appearance of a planet places it to the left of the Sun and a dawn appearance to the right of the Sun. Previously you couldn't understand this basic principle but now you do even if you are ungrateful. The same goes for the background stars due to the orbital motion of the Earth.

You are one ignorant *******, aren't you? I knew these things before you were born, you sad creature!

To be fair to you, not until you queried the transition from an evening appearance to a dawn appearance as a faster moving inner planet passes between the slower moving Earth and the central/stationary Sun did I realize how dreary the celestial sphere magnification enthusiasts could be -

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg

People must be truly desperate despite the fact that contemporary imaging makes proof of orbital motion such a spectacular sight to behold.

Gerald, if you really think this is an image, you are dumber than a box of hammers. Just where was this photographer standing in order to get such a shot of Venus BELOW the Sun in his field of view?


As a Christian it is easy to love the connection between man and God via the spiritual or in physical terms the connection between the individual and Universal via the inspirational. It is not adrift from human experience but at the heart of it so that even if people claim they knew it all in their pre-teens, that too is simply part and parcel of what it means to do something creative and productive in astronomy, even if it is not so nice to observe -

"'He who shared my bread has turned against me.'" Jesus/ Psalms

The partitioning of perspectives is something really new for reasons that are easy for me to appreciate but presently are not for others but that will change albeit slowly. The original heliocentric astronomers didn't make the distinction but that is nothing more than the emergence of excellent imaging and graphics which make the distinction possible and does nothing to detract from the original innovations of Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler.

"We find, then, in this arrangement the marvelous symmetry of the universe, and a sure linking together in harmony of the motion and size of the spheres, such as could be perceived in no other way. For here one may understand, by attentive observation, why Jupiter appears to have a larger progression and retrogression than Saturn, and smaller than Mars, and again why Venus has larger ones than Mercury; why such a doubling back appears more frequently in Saturn than in Jupiter, and still more rarely in Mars and Venus than in Mercury" Copernicus

The issue of retrogrades allied to planetary phases is something that requires dedicated graphics and images yet how to get people interested in the development of the full story which divides the inner and outer planets by perspectives remains the only issue. Unlike Galileo I find it is unfamiliarity which presents the greatest obstacle although the theorists with their own agenda don't help matters in bringing the reasoning for a Sun centered system to a wider audience -

"My dear Kepler, I wish that we might laugh at the remarkable stupidity of the common herd. What do you have to say about the principal philosophers of this academy who are filled with the stubbornness of an asp and do not want to look at either the planets, the moon or the telescope, even though I have freely and deliberately offered them the opportunity a thousand times? Truly, just as the asp stops its ears, so do these philosophers shut their eyes to the light of truth" Galileo


The sheer simplicity behind the higher reasoning for the Earth's orbital motion using observations the inner planets, the outer planets or the annual transition of the stars from an evening to a morning appearance should attract all people who live a creative and productive life and have the courage to ignore the dullards who never encountered an astronomical observation they didn't destroy.

On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 10:09:34 AM UTC-6, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

The issue of retrogrades allied to planetary phases

It is true that retrogrades and planetary phases are both related to the
relative positions of the Earth and the planet in question around the
Sun.

However, Mercury and Venus proceed around the Sun at different rates, and
so they spend a different portion of their orbits in apparent retrograde
motion.

Planetary phases depend not on the rate of motion of a planet, but only
on the geometry of their positions. So, while the two are linked, they
don't have a simple direct relationship.

John Savard

On Thursday, 27 April 2017 23:22:52 UTC+2, palsing wrote:

You are one ignorant *******, aren't you? I knew these things before you were born, you sad creature!

Sorry, you just failed the psychiatric nurse, entrance exam for the secure ward. ;-)

On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 10:11:17 AM UTC-7, Chris.B wrote:
On Thursday, 27 April 2017 23:22:52 UTC+2, palsing wrote:

You are one ignorant *******, aren't you? I knew these things before you were born, you sad creature!

Sorry, you just failed the psychiatric nurse, entrance exam for the secure ward. ;-)

Thankfully!

Astronomy has the same satisfaction as music and in this case the inner looping motions as the faster moving Venus and Mercury run their circuits and move in alternate directions against the background stars in the process . Not only the phases but size increase/decrease along with brightness marks the passage of an inner planet in its annual trek although the latter is much less pronounced as the phases color that feature -

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

So the inner planets are seen to move full circle excluding some inputs ,albeit important ones, from a slower moving Earth which delays the period against which a full set of planetary circuits an inner planet makes.

The real subtlety is reviewing how the original Sun centered astronomers worked off a framework which would not have given the neat fitting between retrograde resolution and phases for the inner planets including the additional observations made possible by magnification but it is no secret -

". . . the ancient hypotheses clearly fail to account for certain important matters. For example, they do not comprehend the causes of the numbers, extents and durations of the retrogradations and of their agreeing so well with the position and mean motion of the sun. Copernicus alone gives an explanation to those things that provoke astonishment among other astronomers, thus destroying the source of astonishment, which lies in the ignorance of the causes." 1596, Mysterium Cosmographicum, Kepler

It is the transition from an evening appearance to a dawn appearance of the background stars due to the orbital motion of the Earth which sets the Sun up as a central reference for the motions of the inner planets that makes all the difference and removes the last vestiges of geocentric descriptions from orbital motions.

In the end people will eventually receive a proper description of the motions of the planets seen from the surface of the Earth, it doesn't matter who did it first in complete form but it has been done nonetheless.